Obviously, we can argue on each of these points how compelling the evidence is or how much Yoni is spending on each item, but I'm not sure that knowing whether Yoni purchases brand-name soap or generic soap is going to change the landscape for him. I am not publishing this information for the Chumps to nitpick on each item. We're not going to demand that Yoni change his spending habits immediately and file a revised budget with the Chumps' community watchdog group, just to satisfy the masses. But I did want everyone to get a sense of what a Struggler's budget looks like, although not all Strugglers are this detailed. It certainly looks better than mine.
All numbers are monthly numbers, and are rough approximations of the average monthly expenses.
| Paycheck (after tax) | 6,900 | ||
| Gifts/ Interest / Other | 20 | ||
| 6,920 | |||
| Mortgage and Tax | 2,761 | ||
| Food | 1,000 | ||
| Electric, Oil, Utility | 325 | ||
| Gas and Repairs | 100 | ||
| Car Payment | 625 | ||
| Car Insurance | 110 | ||
| Commute | 150 | ||
| Cell / TV / Internet / Phone | 140 | ||
| Health, Dentist, Drugs, Doctor | 200 | ||
| Shabbos/Yom Tov Supplies | 50 | ||
| Clothing | 75 | ||
| Gifts | 20 | ||
| Life Insurance | 50 | ||
| Appliance/Toy Purchases | 50 | ||
| Maasar | - | ||
| Miscellaneous | 20 | ||
| 5,676 | |||
| Extra Money | 1,244 | ||
Yoni and his wife bring home about $83,000 a year after taxes, but spends about $68,100 before camps and luxurious spa visits for the wife (which as all Chumps know, is a basic requirement for a Struggler's wife). This also includes no amount given to charity, and also does not include tuition payments for the yeshivot.
So let's discuss!
48 comments:
Car payment is high.
Food is VERY high, especially considering there's $50 more under Shabbos supplies.
This looks like a one-income family; the nonworking spouse could certainly spend time bargain hunting and coupon clipping a la Orthonomics.
I'm not nitpicking, just trying to help out with this budget.
Nice breakdown. If he expects to pay tuition, he bought too much house and car. The other expense numbers are reasonable (or even on the low side).
Tessya, you should be my budget manager if you think the food number is high. My food number (on a per person basis) is more than double....
Food is not high for a 5 person family. My food bill for my 5 person family is just as high and does not include fancy food shopping.
I'm curious what the various categories really mean... Commuting is 150 dollars per month? Why is there $200 for health drugs etc? Is there medical insurance?
$200 a month doesn't buy medical insurance. There has to be separate medical insurance payments, doesn't there? With three kids?
Appliance and toy purchases are $600? What are you buying the kids with our scholarship money?
Anon 2:50,
He probably has medical insurance from work.
Dear Yoni
I'm so glad that my tuition money could go to your scholarship money, because I wouldn't want you to live without your iPhone, your HBO and Cinemax movies, and the steak you're buying with $1,000 a month for food.
With love,
A full-paying Chump
Tessya, you should be my budget manager if you think the food number is high. My food number (on a per person basis) is more than double....
Well, both spouses work full time in my family so our food bill is not nearly as low as it could be if one of us wasn't working and could actually take the time to shop for bargains. As I said, see Orthonomics - her current post is quite relevant
http://orthonomics.blogspot.com/2010/11/blog-after-my-own-heart-kosher-on.html
But most people don't do that. I honestly don't know why a non-working spouse can't scrounge for bargains, even if she has to take the baby with her. And save the meat for Shabbos.
We can nitpick all we want (though I believe food and car payment is too high), but thats not the point.
This cannot be analyzed without further information. Is this a one-income family? What are the occupations? Is there the possibility to pick up more work on the side?
My opinion is if this is a one income family, time to make it 2 incomes. Maybe even try to teach in the kids yeshiva for the tuition break.
Why is there a line for Maasar? If someone is receiving a scholarship, they are receiving tzedaka and should not have to pay maasar. Or is scholarship not tzedaka?
But this does not answer my question. How did these people buy a house in BC knowing they couldnt meet the Yeshiva payment? Or without knowing their professions, did they consider the expenses of a MO family when picking their professions? Unfortunately, given the current situation, some fields are a very poor choice.
Do I have sympathy? Yes, but many of us are on budgets. But how is their situation going to change in 5 years?
Anon 2:50 - $200/month for medical copays, medecine is not outrageous, and, quite frankly, I don't need/want to know more details on this one.
$150/month commuting is, apparently, what it costs this person to commute. Tolls, trains, parking... whatever it happens to be. Could there be some fat here? Maybe, but it's not a red flag.
tesyaa - I'm with the others. Austerity measures/meal planning could bring that number down, but $1000/month on food is not outrageous for five people.
The big numbers that jump out at me are the house and car. If you expect to have $2500/month in tuition (rising to $3750/month with child #3 entering school - and these numbers do not include camp) you can't spend $3381 on the car and house. Just because the bank is willing to lend it to you doesn't mean that you can afford it.
It also looks like one of the parents is staying home - there's no line item for childcare. That appears to be a luxury this family cannot afford, either.
Tessya,
Yoni and his wife both work. Not sure if that came through in the post.
Where is the childcare expense accounted for? Are we missing something?
Honest,
You're being a Chump. SW said not to pick on individual items, and okay that's a hard thing to not do. But you're picking on a line that has zero dollars put to it!?!? That's gotta be the essence of Chumphood.
Tessya,
Not sure about where the childcare is. I guess I planned on aggregating some follow-up questions to ask, but I figured I'd let the post go without having every detail. Not sure it matters, if they have a free babysitter or a grandmother watching the third child, then it shouldn't be relevant to the overall discussion. Right?
If the family gets free childcare (e.g. from a grandparent), that's a big benefit that quantifies to a fair amount of income.
Anon 3:12
I am commenting on the mindset. Many of us believe that scholarship is tzedaka. Struggling tells us that he too believes that. Dont know if Yoni does. If someone is receiving tzedaka he need not give tzedaka with that money. If they can give, give it back to the yeshiva so another person can get scholarship if needed. Just trying to point out the mindset of smone(not all) scholarship recepients.
I hate to say it, but if this is a 2 income family, their life would be much better (less stressful) living in a different community. Not my call to make, but thats what I would do
They're making $15K before tuition. That sounds like just enough to put two kids into JFS.So why are they on scholarhip?? Get them the h*** out of Bergen County!
Tesyaa,
So let's say it quantifies to a fair amount of income. Then what? Not sure where you are headed.
Mainly, if they get free childcare they are certainly not a typical, representative two income family.
Do we even know if that is the story? Why don't we just assume that they're leaving the little kid home alone and have them prosecuted for child abuse?
Also, when it says the paycheck is "after tax", I'm assuming that means after all deductions, not just taxes. (Which would explain the fact there's no expense for medical insurance - there is an expense, but it's not broken out). Are there other deductions, such as 401(k) contributions (which are, after all, Yoni's money) that we're not seeing?
I'm not trying to nitpick, complain or have Yoni arrested. I just think we can't understand the Struggler with such limited information.
Honest,
The maa'ser line is on the form. It's got no money in it. Your concern is that how dare they even put a line in there for it? What a mindset! Maybe they want it in there to remind themselves that someday they should pay maa'ser?
Anon 3:12
If thats the reason then Kol HaKavod. Lets add lines for shul dues and scholarship repayment.
To me, this is the classic example of buying a house and not acounting for tuition. Brings us back my orginal question. How do you do that and whats the plan going forward?
Any answers?
Tessya,
If they're a two income family making between 120 and 130 thousand, then after medical expenses and taxes without 401K, they could be in the 85 thousand range. Sounds reasonable. Is 120-130 thousand enough to live in BC? I'd say no.
Anyone know how much it costs to rent an apartment big enough for 5 people, including 3 smallish kids?
These people cannot afford the size house they want in this area. Not being mean.
It looks like their expenses are higher than mine in the food and cable area but that won't make a difference. I don't see their tuition payments here so are they on full scholarship?
Apartment in Teaneck, 1500 -2000?
Dumb question
Everyone is entitled to live in a house in Teaneck
If you rent, not only is your outlay lower, but your maintenance/miscellaneous costs are quite a bit lower.
There are tax savings from having a mortgage. I don't know how much, but I always get a refund every year because of it.
Anon 4:18 - Sorry, no. You don't save money by having a mortgage. You get a tax deduction on the mortgage interest. But you still have to pay mortgage interest in the first place, and the deduction eliminates the ability to get the standard deduction you would get otherwise if you don't itemize. It's a bit like going shopping, buying things you don't need, and justifying the purchase because you saved money as it was ON SALE!
I'm going to assume that Yoni has already adjusted his W2 so that he doesn't owe much/get a big refund each April 15. He still has to come up with $2761 per month to cover his mortgage/property tax/insurance, which doesn't leave enough left over for tuition. Home ownership is expensive, particularly in high property tax areas, and he doesn't even have a line item for home repairs. When the boiler dies or the roof needs repairing, that will take priority over tuition, too.
Honest asks a legitimate question. How can you buy a house, have kids, and still afford tuition if you're not a Chump?
Look, I get it: dual income couple, making over $100,000 - why shouldn't you be able to live in a modest house and drive a nice car? Why should you have to struggle?
The reality is pretty simple, though: if you buy a house in a high tax area and have an expensive car, then you can't also have a big family and send them all to $15,000/year private schools. It's basic math.
Honest asks a legitimate question. How can you buy a house, have kids, and still afford tuition if you're not a Chump?
At least of one the three is not a religious requirement, and we know which one it is.
But "that ship has already sailed".
Well, that begs another question. What if they're basically underwater on their mortgage, which would mean getting out is impossible?
The answer is priorities. It is a simple answer. Rank the following four items in order of importance. (this is an actual ranking, not "if everything was equal")
1. Number of children
2. live in BC
3. Own home
4. Yeshiva education for children
Some may say that #1 and #4are the same, but in an honest appraisal they are not.
The way you rank your list shows what your lifestyle should be and what should get cut to attain the higher ranked items.
BTW personally 1,4,3,2. If I could not afford tuition, i would move out of BC
How is $1,000 not high?
We are a family of 4 and spend around $500/month, not very frugally. They could easily cut $250/month off that. Easily. That's $3,000 more a year.
Shira,
Can I ask if you're getting any help with food from your family, or if you go away for shabbos a lot? Do you have a baby that's nursing and you're counting them as one of the four? Do you not give your family milk, fruit, and vegetables? Soda is cheap, junk cereal is cheap, even bread isn't pricey. I can spend more on 6 peaches than I do on a loaf of bread.
If your answers are all no, I gotta ask for your secret.
For cheap fruits & vegetables, go to Farmers Market on Route 17 in East Rutherford. You will spend half of the cheapest supermarket prices. The gas you spend for will be made up for twenty-fold. They're open from 7 am to 6 pm including on Sundays. Excuses, excuses.
If your answers are all no, I gotta ask for your secret.
I am not Shira, but here's some help cutting your food budget:
http://orthonomics.blogspot.com/2010/11/blog-after-my-own-heart-kosher-on.html
Face it, most people are terrible shoppers and don't even compare prices.
One more thought
This "budget" is the prime example of what drives chumps crazy/jealous. Looking at it, they own a modest home, similar to many in BC. They drive 2 nice cars. Given the food budget, they must nicely every night or have lots of take out and/or shabbos company. Their life is exactly like chumps except chump pays full tuition. Right or wrong, chump feels that if someone is receiving tzedaka, they should be sacrificing and doing without. This example shows that they are not.
This is not to say chump's outlook is correct or healthy. But if this blog is to show the strugglers side, it should also explain the chumps side
I've put some additional information in a new post.
Thank you to all who pointed to my blog post which pointed to another frugal Orthodox blogger. Mara's blog is a valuable source of information and I love it!
Here is how I organize cost-effective shopping:
http://orthonomics.blogspot.com/2008/07/organizing-cost-effective-grocery.html
and don't blow the savings come Pesach time:
http://orthonomics.blogspot.com/2006/04/making-budget-pesach-this-post-is_03.html (there are other Pesach posts too)
I only want to offer advice as a service, not for bragging rights. I have always been frugal in the grocery area and we do eat a healthy diet. In college I spent very little and when I was single I spent very little, atlhough at each point my diet could have been healthier.
When I married, the grocery budget became way too inflated (and it wasn't anything close to what I believe, make that *know* since I do consults, most young couples spend). We ate a healthy and balanced diet, but I realized that if we were going to fast track our savings, this was an area we could and should concentrate on. After all, we had no car payments and our housing costs were within range.
At this point, our food + household supplies + diapers are not costing us greater than $50 a month more on average from before kids.
Others may poo-poo coupon cutting, changing the menu up, buying only produce that is on sale, etc, but but my investment in getting the grocery budget under control has paid off many time over and if this family can get just one area of their budget slashed, it will pay off again and again. . . . .in fact, the savings from changing the grocery line item should pay for the next (used) car in CASH.
Sorry anon, I didn't get a chance to come back until now.
We eat a lot of fresh fruits and veggies. We don't get help (my mother will occasionally drop by with a head of lettuce or 2 bananas or something, but nothing budget worthy).
We don't have that much company for Shabbos. Maybe once a month?
I have a 13 month old that still nurses at bedtime and morning, but eats and drinks more than most adults.
We also buy organic milk for the kids.
No cheap sugar cereals - we do buy cheerios, rice krispies and Puffins.
We buy HFCS-free bread.
We don't eat much red meat - mainly chicken. We eat 1-2 dairy meals a week (pasta with cheese or pizza).
We don't do much for our food budget really. Which is why $1,000 sound enormous to me.
The comment "Why did they move to BC knowing what school costs here?" has come up a few times.
I have run the numbers for 25 dayschools around the country (like I did for BC here). Once you factor in cost of living, there is actually very little substantial spread in the cost of dayschool around the country. There is some spread, and BC is on the higher side of the curve, but relative to the total cost, the variation is small. With the notable exception of JFS, which is around half the price of education anywhere else in the country. I wish more time and effort was spent on trying to figure out what they're doing right!
The idea that moving out of BC will somehow solve a family's tuition issues is nonsense.
Eli, tuition in Bergen County may be in the high average range, but housing and other costs of living are high too. Cut your housing payments substantially and maybe a person can afford BC tuition. Of course, one doesn't have to move out to do that - consider a rental.
tesyaa,
I scale the absolute dollar cost with cost of living so all the tuitions are compared on equal footing.
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