If you want to see what G-d thinks of money, just look at all of the people He gave it to. - Dorothy Parker
One thing that stuck with me from previous conversations was this concept of "haves" and "have nots". In our community, we break it down into probably four categories:
"Winthrops" - Seen as the overlords of the Jewish community, these rich people have always worked extremely hard to be successful in their careers, got a lot of luck and made it work for them, and are significant financial and nonfinancial contributors to both the Jewish community and the legacy BC schools in particular. In many cases, these Winthrops don't even have children in the schools anymore, but that doesn't matter... it is still permissible to blame them for all of the schools' failings, especially tuition costs.
"Chumps" - Those bemoaning the fact that they are firmly stuck in the middle class. They're not wealthy enough to own mansions and not poor enough to receive scholarships. Chumps work hard alright, and they don't get to spend enough time with their families. At the root of it, all of the Chumps are mostly hardworking, selfless people who just want an equitable stake in their schools and in their communities at large. Well, all of the Chumps except for that one guy who always complains about shuls that gives aliyot to jacket-wearing child molesters and ex-cons. I'm not sure whether to give him his own category or not. Let's leave him here for now.
"Strugglers" - Maybe a newly defined term for many of you, but sadly, this is a growing percentage of the community. I personally fit into this category, but I can tell you that there are a variety of unique stories of people that fit under this umbrella. The common thread amongst Strugglers is that we're all on the schools' scholarship lists. Biggest complaint about Strugglers? We don't sacrifice everything in life before asking for a scholarship. In fact, we drive relatively new cars and minivans, leased or financed underwritten by Chumps and Winthrops bloated tuition bills. We eat name-brand food, meat and chicken instead of canned fish, and we dare take our children on vacations.
"The Helpless" - We'll coin a new term here to describe all those of you who went into careers where you knew that you had no chance of supporting yourself and knew that you were going to have to rely on scholarship and other help.
I think the initial rage has been from the Chumps to the Helpless and less so to the Strugglers. There have been many arguments, including "move out of BC, drive a cheaper car, stop having kids, drop dead, and go to public school or JFS". .But here's my personal favorite point from the Chumps: <b>If the Chump argument is that anyone who willingly went into the Helpless category (i.e. Rebbes, or anyone who went into psychology/sociology/social work/etc) is an idiot and should not have gone into this line of work, well then... we'd probably not have many rebbes. </b>Or said another way, we'd be forced to take more of those "coming out of Lakewood, Monsey, or Passaic" black hat rabbeim that everyone seems to ridicule. (I personally have always been happy with the quality of Rabbeim in my children's experiences, whether it was a black hat rebbe or not). Also, we have to allow for the fact that many people just don't have the "head" to go into medicine, law, or business, probably the three most economically viable areas. Are these Helpless folk still working hard, maybe running a business or something similar? Yes, they're putting in the time and effort to make as much as they can, but it's not enough. Chumps want them out of the community, ASAP. Well, that's certainly the "Midas HaDin" perspective, not the "Midas HaRachamim" perspective.
I think it's arguable that there's a benefit to keeping Strugglers in the community. They can turn into Chumps in the near-term, or maybe they used to be? I don't think we've really determined the financial impact of keeping Strugglers in the school, but they're paying $8-10K per child instead of $15K, they might still have contributed enough that it's worth keeping them in the school. (every dollar helps.) Smaller classes, smaller schools don't help pay off the mortgages. But what about the Helpless? They have no chance. They seem to have twice as many kids as Chumps. They are frequently seen having coffee with Nancy Pelosi. I mean, they're clearly evil. What do we do about them?
How can a Jewish neighborhood claim to be so supportive of core Jewish values and yet not understand how these people are deserving of being in our community?
I'm not saying that we should give them a pass on this... they should have a better understanding of the financial situation they're in. I'd love it if they stayed in that little apartment with 12 kids until they could afford a house, but that ship has already sailed.
The real answer to the question above is that the community at large is supportive. People do support each other, but there's a smaller group of people who are complaining and don't want to follow the communal lead. For the record, I respect that view as well. You ought to be able to do whatever you want with your money... and to the best of my knowledge, you can. You can pay $8,000 to send your kids to JFS. You can send them to public school. You can refuse to give tzedaka to anyone if you don't know how they spend their money Or you can send them to a legacy school and pay full tuition. <i> Ah, but what you want to do most of all... alas, you can't do, and that is to tell the legacy schools how much to charge you for tuition.</i> That option is not available. The yeshiva has made a tuition determination via a likely painstaking process, identifying the best way to maximize their income effectively and efficiently. And that involves Chumps paying $15K. The only way to "beat them at their own game" is to choose one of the other options available to you. The yeshiva then chooses to give a scholarship; we'll assume that it's partially out of kindness, but partially out of understanding that getting 1/2 tuition from the 20th kid in the class is better than having a class of 19 kids and not getting anything from the 20th kid. But none of that altriusm came from the Chumps. You don't get credit for the tzedaka, especially if they had to rip it from your cold, ungiving fingers.
I heard a while back that a yeshiva (or two or three?) tried a different model to put some money back in the Chumps' pockets. Tuition was set at the actual "cost" for educating the child, with the incremental amount considered an optional donation. This had something to do with the tax rules saying that only if it was optional could a family deduct tuition. Well, I heard that participation was extremely low. In our example and if we applied this to 2011-2012 tuition, if your current tuition is $15K and next year tuition was $10K and the "optional" amount was $5K, then you could deduct the $5K from your taxes. The school would still get $15K, but the US government would give you an exemption for the $5K. Tax rates are what, 25-30%? That's around $1,500 back in your pocket. Sounds like a great option, everyone wins (except for the government, but hey, that's life, right?)
Participation in the "optional amount" was sparse. The schools lost a tremendous amount of tuition money by making that last $5K optional, and sure enough, the program died soon after. So there went the opportunity, Chumps... a win-win for both sides blew up in the schools' face, and now? We're back to the age of full tuitions and no tax exemptions.
What's the bottom line? I think it's that we still don't have an appreciation for the different arguments/positions on each side. Chumps don't understand why the Strugglers and Helpless won't get out of BC. Strugglers don't understand why people don't think they're paying their way. Helpless don't understand why people wouldn't want to help them.
But I will say this... we definitely do not put the best face on our community when we argue amongst ourselves. Let's see if we can all continue to argue our points to the best we can, while still showing humility and appreciation for what Hashem has given us and showing sympathy for those who aren't as blessed.
46 comments:
Struggling, I appreciate your thoughts and comments. I think there are several points to be made:
1. I have lived here for over 20 years. By and large, the people who live here are caring and generous. There are a few people outside of that category, and unfortunately, they reflect badly on everyone else.
2. Some chumps will never be happy. They are also very brave behind a keyboard.
3. Having served on a yeshiva board for many years, I can tell you that I saw this crisis coming, and brought it up to my board. Specifically, I did not see (and this was at least 5 years ago) how an average middle class family here could possibly pay tuition for 3 or more children. The genral response I got was sympathy, but the school was (and still is) in financial distress, so what could they do?
3. The reason most chumps are upset is that they feel many undeserving people are receiving scholarships. Is this really true? I don't know. If someone does now this for a fact, I would LOVE for them to bring it to their schools' attention. If I knew of a such a case, I would.
4. I'm certainly not telling you what to do, but if a school like JFS was half the tuition, and you don't want to receive charity, then why wouldn't you send your children there?
5. You have probably taken tens of thousands of money in scholarships. Would you be willing to pay this back if had more discretionary income (instead of spending it on something else)?
6. I have heard from different rabbis that if you are receiving a break on tuition, then any tzedaka money you give should be given to your school first. Do you agree with this? If not, why not?
Have a great shabbos.
Thanks Struggling for the post. I do find it interesting that there is a clear internal contradiction in the perspective we've seen on the issue of teacher and admin pay. Chumps have pointed out a number of times that you need to earn at least 250k to live in Bergen County. A pretty robust number that would seem way beyond the reach of most chumps who don't seem to earn even this much - but let's put that aside. Even if we assume that all teacher, admins and Rabbis in our community never pay a penny for tuition (clearly not the case but let's use it for argument sake) then these people would need to earn at least 180k pre-tax to live in our town. If you read all of the 990s for all the schools you will see that there is likely only one person on that list who exceeds this number - i.e., the Principal - and we know that the hundreds of other employees in the schools don't earn anywhere near this amount. I'm sure this is true for the vast majority of Rabbis in our community. Even if you factor in multiple jobs / income for many of these people - it is hard to conceive that as educators they will surpass this number.
So basically what we are saying is that if you are a teacher, admin or Rabbi, you can't live in our town. So where do these people live - Monsey, Lakewood, Passaic, Staten Island - i.e., all the places that chumps don't want to live and, at least according to many comments on the other blogs, don't want their children influenced by a hashkafa that is "not MO" (hence all the silly comments about jackets). So basically, we refuse to pay a decent salary to people to teacher our children, are "forced" to bring in faculty from other towns and then malign them when they are not fully aligned with our haskafa. What's wrong with this picture?
Personally, I have no problem with Admins, Rabbis and Teachers from these other communities. My kids are taught by them every day (they are in everyone of our schools and many, if not most, of JFS teachers come from places like Lakewood), are growing up to be great MO adults and my personal haskafa is not so far off (as I would suggest is for the vast majority in the Teaneck / Bergenfield area). But poor chumps - they are faced with a serious catch 22.
What! Someone in the lower income can't afford to live in the one of the most expensive neighborhood in the country? That's outrageous!
Uh. No. That's the way it is normally. People have to live in neighborhoods theey can afford. So if you want to live in Teaneck, you might have a small house or an apartment. You think that's wrong? That's normal.
And another thing, are you suggesting that all teacher's spouses don't have jobs?
Oh yeh, you forgot about parsonage which is a huge tax benefit for limudei kodesh.
This is silly.
Ok - so is the argument that all these teachers are doing better financially then the chumps? I guess I missed the line outside the schools with all those chump lawyers applying for jobs to teach math at a small fraction of their pay. How about chump wives - are they giving up their free time and/or part time jobs to become teachers?
still, your response begs the question, do we want our admins and teachers coming from our community or is the message - you can teach our children but you can't be our neighbors because you weren't smart enough to 'play with the big boys in New York' (what a joke).
The teachers are doing fine if they spend judiciously and live in homes and neighborhoods they can afford. Can they live on every block in Teaneck? No, but neither can I (or most people). Can they live like people who make 200k or 300k, etc? No, they can't. If their spouses work, they can likely live in many neighborhoods (in the smaller houses on the block).
They won't be rich. I have no problem with that. But that they "should be able" to live in an expensive area, is silly. Yes, all people should have this and that. And our shul should have this and that.
An important part of our chinuch or our children is that we can't all have everything. Life has consequences. If you don't study for the test - you likely won't do well on the test. If you don't make a lot of money, you can't (you shouldn't)live in an expensive area.
Ok, you'll say that people "should" be able to live wherever they want regardless of affordability? True, you can have that, but there is a cost - higher than otherwise tuition. There are teachers who make 3 figures. Is that right or wrong? Not arguing ethically, but it pushes tuition to the current levels, 15k per kids.
There is ZERO reason to be mean with talk like "big boys", etc. The fact is as you must teach your children, there are choices and sacrifices - short term and long term. There might be a time in your child's life where they forgo income and go to graduate school. As the parent, you need to teach your children that during those years in school, they should not live beyond their means until they are financially secure, right? They "should" live like rich people?
JFS has teachers from Lakewood,Brooklyn, Staten Island, other parts of NJ.
JFS is located in a good location for attracting teachers from affordable areas, but this is just one of the reasons why JFS is half the price of the legacy schools.
Come hear about it - This sunday night 11/8 - 8 PM at Greengarts 28 Grayson Place, Teaneck.
frugal,
I agree with what you wrote. If you become a teacher you should know what comes with it - e.g., not a big salary, fulfillment from other elements of the job. I also agree that someone living on a teacher salary shouldn't expect to live in the biggest houses / most expensive blocks in town.
Your perspective should also apply to chumps - sorry but if you "only" earn 200k - you shouldn't expect to live the life of those that make a lot more than you. Does it suck that you will struggle paying high tuition for 4+ children - of course - but that is the lot in life that you have chosen or was chosen for you.
What I take offense at is when chumps making 200k look at teachers who in most schools make less than 50k and admins who as we've seen make on average less than 120k and are outraged that they earn "so much". I only wish we valued chinuch half as much as we do most secular jobs. Obviously a bigger commentary on our society at large.
JFS Parent - sounds like they are attracting teachers from most of the same places as our BC schools - so question is - do they just pay them a lot less than our schools in BC? or is there some other trick? There has been much hay made about administrators but realistically, you could eliminate a lot of them and still not lower tuition that dramatically. We all know that JFS gets more money from the state than we do in NJ (good for them) and was bailed out by RJJ a number of years ago when it went bankrupt so presumably still getting a lot of support from them. Beyond these - do they just pay less or is there some other trick?
Anon 1:41.
There are no tricks. It is a goal of theirs to have affordable tuition. It has always been much less than BC. BC schools subscribe to the PEJE philosophy (very common now in private colleges as well) that the best way to raise revenues is keeping raising tuition and then just discount for the growing amount of people who can't afford it.
JFS doesn't have that philosophy. They have always gone with the lower number by chargin only what they have to charge and by spending thriftly in their planning. Location in NY is a good benefit that helps too.
In terms of paying a teacher a lot less than BC schools. That strategy will / does not work if you want good teachers and JFS has excellent top of the line teachers as the best will usually go to the higher / highest paying job.
BC schools do not attract teachers from Brooklyn, Staten Island, and Lakewood. I think some BC schools hire from Passaic, but that is probably the only overlap of teacher's market. JFS pays competitively for where there markets are from and has never missed a payroll which is a problem is some of those areas.
To all of you BC parents out there, I am sorry to say that there is not just one thing or another that makes the BC schools worth double the price. JFS is comparable to all of the BC schools. Every school has strengths and less strengths, but JFS is not a low cost or no frills school.
Come to the open house and see / hear about it. They have good facilities, great teachers, technology that is amazing and a leadership team (of 2) that is very impressive.
We are getting a great product - same or better than the BC schools - at half the price.
Frugal,
No anger from me, though I think teachers / admins are adequately compensated. Given the hours of their job, I think their comp is quite fair.
Your point to chumps is a good one - about being frugal - though they are free to complain that their tuitions have gone up and continue to go up to subsidize others that might not follow the frugal rule. Hard to swallow when you see the contrast.
Struggling,
I'm enjoying reading your posts - they're well written and funny. My problem with your definitions is that the Chumps are struggling, and the Strugglers have often set themselves up to be Helpless.
Really, it's simple math: if you're going to have a large family and send to private schools, you're going to need a LOT of income. To cover 4 kids at $15k each = $60K after tax = ~80-85K+ in pre-tax income just to cover elementary school tuition. Once two of them are in high school, the bill can easily jump another 40%. This is not complicated math, and it assumes that tuition rises at the rate of inflation rather than the 7 - 8% annual increase that characterized most of the last two decades. So explain to me how so many people who are not independently wealthy choose to buy $400 - $700K houses with $10 - 17K annual property tax bills that pass for modest houses in this town? The answer: either our town is filled with people who lack the most basic math and planning skills, or they deliberately set themselves up with high expenses because they assume that paying full tuition is optional.
(And yes, I put people who expect to be a hedge fund manager/big firm partner or have dual six-figure careers in this category. If you buy the house before you have the income, you're not betting that the bank won't foreclose, you're betting that you won't have to pay full tuition.)
Then these same people go on vacations, eat out, have lawn services, go to hair salons, drive expensive leased cars, and have that "one more" child... It definitely makes Chumps on the bubble - who are giving up these things to pay full tuition - very angry.
Thanks Avi. As usual, your comments are on target.
I'd build on your analysis to add that the tragedy here is that we've got ourselves in somewhat of a catch-22. As you and Struggler have noted, there are 3 sets of constituents with divergent interests.
1) Those who can comfortably afford tuition are happy with the current tuition and are comfortable investing even more to ensure that their children receive the best education they can in a hashkafic environment that best meets their basic belief system. They are also happy to subsidize the tuition for the less fortunate on scholarship (within reason).
2) Those on scholarship - strugglers or more directly in need - are comfortable with the current system (to the extent they are comfortable taking tzeddaka from others and not building up a financial cushion and/or planning for the future). These folks, again assuming no stigma in taking tzeddaka (somewhat big assumption but lets go with it), are comfortable with the current situation and would not choose a lower cost school if it is inferior or inconvenient.
3) That's leave the chumps, who are struggling not to get by but to live a little bit better a life then they have today (e.g., be able to save for the future, have some modest luxuries which they realistically can argue they have earned) but are mentally stuck by the whole system. What traps the chumps is not anything the other two groups have done but the difficulty they have coming to terms with the fact that a) they can change their situation but in order to do so they have to focus on what is best for themselves not what others are doing, b) they are going to have to make some level of compromise (e.g., travel a bit further, be the first to try something different, potentially compromise on quality for price), c) (or) they will have to start something new on their own (e.g., a low cost school) and invest / work even harder than they are now but no one else will do it for them and, finally, d) it isn't fair - but, hey, life isn't fair.
Chump's blog has effectively given chumps a place to complain about their lot in life but has been incredibly bad at instigating people to change. As a matter of fact, I believe it has cause irreparable damage because it has created a victim mindset on the part of chumps that they now share with a supposedly large set of victims who have all chosen to do nothing. I don't know if this is a mindset issue, a number issue (e.g., just not enough of them) or a capability issue (they just can't get it done). Regardless, this catch-22 is self made and self perpetuating. Would be good to see some other courageous souls like yourself who could break out.
btw - I also wish there was a way to break the mindset of some srugglers that scholarship is a "right" / tuition discount. I believe the schools are aggressively working to close this issue but will take some more time given the vast number of issues that this entails.
Unfortunately, this has become the mindset of America. In the depression, many people who qualified for assistance refused to accept it out of pride.
Today, this is no longer the case. Most people will accept any form of money available.
Sorry about being away for shabbos, guys.
BC Parent,
I would love to mock the Chump crowd for being brave anonymously, but I think we've all learned out lessons from other previous posters/bloggers. It does not pay to come out publicly on either side of the argument in the blog forum. I would think that anonymity and decency would be mutually exclusive; I won't reveal who I am, but I will be respectful anyway. Everyone else should learn to be decent human beings, whether or not they want to tell everyone their names.
People in my shul know who I am, what I do for a living, how many kids I have, and the quality of my cars/house/vacation spots. That's enough voyeurism for me, thank you very much, and I'll pass on the concept of sharing my story with the whole world. At least until I can sell it to TMZ for some cash (which I will then rightfully forward to the yeshiva).
Re: JFS,
My wife attended JFS and had a very bad experience. (more details not to follow, in part not to besmirch an organization or get into a "he said, she said") You can make a logical argument that the school has probably changed many times over in the past 15 years, but I don't think it's an argument to fight on logical grounds. No matter how much you explain that something has changed or the situation was unique, I wouldn't expect her to get past this as an issue. If the first time you went to a restaurant, you found bugs in your food, I don't think you'd go back ever... no matter how many other people had good experiences or even if they changed the ownership.
But it was fair for me to ask the following question, so I did ask it to her yesterday: "If the legacy schools no longer offered scholarships and we had to pull the kids out and JFS is the best financial option, what would you do?" Sadly, her answer was "I'd hold my nose and tongue, and send to JFS for a couple of years. If we are not able by then to pay for tuition, I'd consider moving out of town."
So we haven't really changed the message, which is that we believe that BC is affordable very soon but not at this moment. Again, if we had delayed having kids for 2-3 more years, this might not even be an issue. But we didn't do that... so it's back to "do we want to have a neighborhood in which only top lawyers/doctors/etc live here because no one else can afford to?" No rebbes? No teachers or middle management jews in finance/law?
That'd make for a very warm, hospitable community.
Thx for your response. However, I can see a typical chump response, which is:
"Why should I be forced to subsidize your tuition whenever you could just send your kids to JFS (or equivalent?"
If you did that, you would not have to be on scholarship, and no one would have a complaint against you.
Your thoughts?
Honest,
I will agree that being short 1 month's bills is better than being short 10 months or more. But a family's fixed expenses back in 2008 when they purchased their home have steadily increased. What's cheaper right now? Food? Electricity? Tuition? Clothing? Not a thing. And with more kids piled into the equation and their income levels unexpectedly staying the same, the situation quickly compounds itself into a long-term cycle. So it's one mistake (not anticipating that the recession would hit and a 30 yr old's salary would stop increasing) that then causes multiple months of not having the money for bills. There are very few people in the child-bearing years who would be able to survive the price increases of the next 10 years if their annual salary and bonus would stop increasing alongside of it. We counted on the increases to offset increased expenses, even small increases of 2-3%. They didn't come, but that doesn't mean we didn't plan right.
BC Parent,
You shouldn't have to subsidize my tuition. And if the yeshiva comes out and says that there's no more scholarships, we will have to do the JFS thing or move. Is that really what Chumps want?
I think people in general want to know that those who can't afford full tuition are doing their utmost to pay as much as they can. So if they are living a life of luxury (cleaning help, gardener, frequently eating meat, running A/Cs non stop, stay at home mom etc etc), that's just being a society leech.
I agree with Shira and Joey. It's tragic this recession hit. However, you decided to cut back on tuition. The chumps now are forced to pay for this. I'm not making a judgement statement, just stating the facts. In that state of affairs, people want to see that you cut back on alot of other things as well. If this is not the case, then I'm sure you can see why poeple would be angry.
BC Parent, Shira,
Not disagreeing in theory, but in practice? Who should I reveal my finances too? When people say that they've seen Strugglers spending and spending, they can't possibly have the full picture. Am I beholden to you guys with my financial picture? The yeshiva is the one that pays my scholarship money, and they certainly get a lot of financial information from me. Why should you be entitled to it? You're not giving me any charity.
Shira, I won't bother making the halachic argument about supporting a poor person to the financial level that they once knew. Though that's a halachic fact, it's not really popular so I'll leave it alone for now. But I will say this... if you're a Struggler and your works, you work, and you want to maintain sanity by having a gardener, I can live with that. When are you supposed to do, garden at midnight? Kinda hard to run the mower at that time of night.
At the same time, I recognize that people are going to be angry about that.
Struggling - I'm generally very sympathetic to people on scholarship and give them a pretty big benefit of the doubt that they are very much in need. If not, why would you swallow your pride and subject yourself to the embarrassing financial review by a scholarship committee. However, I did cringe in reading your last comment about a gardener. Put as simply as possible - if my choice was between putting food on the table or having a gardener - I know that my lawn would be a mess. I would expect the same would be true for those on scholarship. Either do it yourself or let the lawn grow, but don't take scholarship money and at the same time spend on what is pretty clearly a luxury.
If your example was meant to be indicative of where you are spending your money while taking scholarship - I have to tell you - you just lost me. You should cringe before deciding on every dime you spend beyond keeping a roof over your head, putting clothing on the backs of your children and food on the table. I'm sure there are exceptions but to put it simply - anything you are spending above the basics should be paid back to the Yeshivas.
I'm sorry, but if you aren't paying full tuition, you can't afford lifestyle goods and services until you are paying full tuition.
Mow the lawn yourself on Sunday.
Cut your own hair.
Bake your own challah.
Make your own pizza.
Clean your own house.
Don't buy a smartphone that requires a data plan.
Don't subscribe to cable TV packages.
And don't buy a house until you can afford a house and tuition on your current salary.
If these ideas seem completely foreign, I submit that this is an enormous part of the expenses/entitlement problem.
I wouldn't go as far as Avi, but conceptually, he has a point. You really lost me you said this:
"Shira, I won't bother making the halachic argument about supporting a poor person to the financial level that they once knew. Though that's a halachic fact, it's not really popular so I'll leave it alone for now.".
So, is what you're advocating that the community support you to pay for your gardener and other luxuries? What if I can't afford it myself and I'm paying full tuition? There are people without jobs that need food and clothing; surely you would agree that they take priority over you.
As much as you claim that many strugglers don't see themselves as poor people receiving tzedaka, the fact is that you are receiving tzedaka. The difference is, unlike truly poor people who cannot afford clothes (and I was in that very position, but I somehow managed to pay full tuition every year), you still drive relatively new cars, go out to eat amd go on vacation.
If you don't see this as a slap in the face to hard working chumps, then you are living in fantasy land. The fact you seem to believe that you are ENTITLED to this is scary to me. It really is. Why should a chump struggle to pay full tuition, when its' easier to qualify for scholarship?
This coversation has taken a disturbing turn. When first married, I did not have cable TV. Given our budget and long term goals, it was not woth it. After 4 years (and an increase in income) we ordered cable TV (no DVR, HBO..) Upon moving to our home BC, one of the first purchases was a lawn mower. Given my expenses (which now included tuition) a gardener would be too much. After another salary increase (work on the side) we decided to get a gardener to mow the lawn every other week. Still have the lawn mower and if the situation changes I will be out pushing it all summer.
My kids carpooled to camp this past summer. The bus would have been easier, but the savings outweighed it. I understand that in working families this may not be an option, but the idea is what is important.
There are certain things in life which are luxuries. If scholarship is tzedaka then not all of it needs to be accepted.
Struggling- I applaud your desire that scholarship be only temporary. However if you continue to have luxuries, then the feelings are disingenious. I am not going into your home to see how many times a month you have take out or if your parents take you away for Pesach. I may not agree with that but I cant stop it. However, if you choose to have cable, gardener, chinese food 3x/week, then you are falling into the same cycle as others.
One question for discussion:
If a person cannot afford tuition in BC, but can afford tuition in another school (JFS, YCQ, Passaic, Monsey), is one required to give them tzedaka to provide for their childrens education?
We pay full tuition and our lawn is a mess.
We pay full tuition and we have prepaid phones, not contract phones (and certainly not smartphones).
We pay full tuition and our senior is the only one in the class who isn't going to Israel next year because the money's not there.
We pay full tuition, both working full time, and we haven't had ANY cleaning help in the last 2 years in order to save money.
And we're not unique.
Shira, I won't bother making the halachic argument about supporting a poor person to the financial level that they once knew. Though that's a halachic fact, it's not really popular so I'll leave it alone for now.
Not a halachic fact. It's only required to support the Ani in that style until the change in his circumstances is no longer secret. I'm sure a rabbi can elaborate, but no way do you get supported in the style you have been accustomed to for the rest of your life.
One more point:
"I'd love it if they stayed in that little apartment with 12 kids until they could afford a house, but that ship has already sailed."
Would you be willing to sell your house and take the equity to pay tuition?
I really don't get why you think you're entitled to live the way you think you should on our backs.
It's true we should support the poor, but I don't see how you fall into that category. Also, your comments about " Chumps want them out of the community, ASAP". I don't think anyone here wants anyone out of the community. Feel free to live anywhere you want and any way you. Just don't expect everyone else to pay for it. if you do want us to pay for it (and from your posts, it sure seems that way), then it becomes everyone's business.
I gotta tell you, I was much more sympathetic to struggling paerents before reading your blog. It bothers the heck out of me that I sacrificed to pay full tuition, and you expect it just to come to you.
I don't want to run anyone out of town. I'm not upset that part of my tuition dollars is subsidizing those who cannot afford tuition (I donate to the schools as well). I'm upset that some of my tuition dollars and my donations are going to those who can afford tuition (or can afford to pay more towards tuition) but choose not to. It's simply not right to take tzedaka - and tuition assistance is tzedaka - and spend money on non-essentials.
There is another telling element of the comments from Struggling. It seems that the perspective is - 'if the schools give me a scholarship, then I'll take it' with no further obligation to ensure that the monies that those on scholarship are being spent appropriately. I'm sure that the schools do their best to determine true need but they can't (or have not yet) track down to the expenses above. I would argue that it is incumbent on someone on scholarship to own up their responsibility to live extra-ordinarily economically prudently in reflection of the fact that their lifestyle is being subsidized by the schools. Regardless of whether or not you "got a scholarship" you have ultimate responsibility to do everything you can to get off scholarship as soon as possible and, whether the scholarship is structured as a loan or not, pay back the schools / community.
The argument above that I won't send my kids to JFS because the schools gave me a scholarship doesn't hold water to me. Either you want to be on the tzedaka roll of the community or you don't. If you don't - you do everything you can to get off including sending your kids to a cheaper school. You certainly DO NOT spend money on anything (anything!!) that is not a basic necessity - and that does include gardeners my friend.
I must agree with the comments above. I'm not a chump, I do contributed to scholarship funds and I am very disturbed by the perspective above if this truly reflects how strugglers are thinking about the world of scholarships.
By walking away for a few hours, I see I've missed a big turn in the conversation. I want to come back to it and I will, but first... I'd like to hear more on the following particular point/question:
The yeshivot tell Strugglers how much to pay. We pay it. What's left over, we spend in a variety of ways, none of which Chumps have a say about.
What did I miss? So where is the complaint? Is the complaint that the yeshivot are not being watchful on what Strugglers spend their money on? Is the complaint that Chumps don't have a say in how much scholarship to give, or what Strugglers have to do in order to be eligible? Is the griping focused on Strugglers or on Admins?
Because I really haven't seen Strugglers do anything sneaky... they give us the amount to pay, we pay it. We're spending the leftovers.
Struggling - forget about the chumps for now. The problem with your last comment is that you are assuming that scholarship are a discount that you've negotiated with the Yeshivas and therefore whatever else you have left is yours to spend as you'd like. While this may be the case in practice, it is NOT the intent and, even if you argue that the schools should do more to make it clear, the responsibility falls on you to do your utmost to get out of your situation taking tzedakah as soon as humanly possible.
Every dollar you are spending on anything that is even remotely close to discretionary is money that you could be saving and/or paying back to the yeshiva. Again, whether or not it is explicit, you owe the Yeshiva back for the money you are taking as scholarship. It is not a bonus you got because you submitted your financials to school and asked for help.
Struggling Who,
You have inadvertently hit the nail on the head. All of us who pay full tuition and pay to scholarship funds are crying when we read that we are working our tails off so that you can have luxuries. Your disconnect between ethical and moral and halacha is very disturbing.
Your comments confirm the public's worst fears about people on scholarship in our schools.
Do you go out to restuarants and order take out food, ever?
Questioner,
We don't eat out, can't afford it. Also, I think you're making a lot of leaps of faith on what we spend our money on... I don't agree with you that I'm disconnected between the ethical, moral, and halachic point of views. I would submit that the moral is probably the most strict. Ethics are covered by the following of the yeshivot's scholarship rules. Halachic is covered by a wider permissive attitude towards how to cover people's expenses (Shira, I can see the top of your head about to explode)...
Morals, though... that's a more specific point. Is it moral to spend money on something that is not a bare necessity, rather than giving the money to the yeshiva as tuition? I usually align my moral views with my religious views, so that one will require more thought. I get the underlying point you're all making, even if I disagree with the point of view that all spending is outrageous and inappropriate.
I personally mow my own lawn. I just said that I can live with the perspective of someone paying for a gardener when their schedule does not permit them to handle it on their own. That led "Avi" to a whole list of examples which are compelling on their own. I can't keep up with each of your comments, but I will try.
Struggling,
You keep ignoring the questions. What luxuries do you have in your life that you're not sacrificing? I want my tuition money to cover your real needs, not your gardener, cleaning lady, and brand-new Lexus SUV.
Struggling,
You won't make my head explode because I don't subsidize you. I currently don't have any kids in Yeshiva and am looking at alternatives for my family. I want to do the financially responsible thing.
As to the tzedaka - what happens when the community cannot afford it? Schools are closing down (hasn't happened in BC yet, but the writing is on the wall).
I don't know exactly how many kids attend the local schools. Lets say one has 750 students, which is approximately 250 families. If every family squeezed their budget and gave another $100/month, that would be $300,000. That't 5 teachers salaries.
I think people don't realize how much little bits of money can actually snowball into large amounts.
Little bits of money? $100 per month is not a little bit of money to a Struggler. Thanks for showing again that Chumps (even if they don't have kids) don't understand the plight of the Strugglers.
Anon 3:30,
I have received a summary of financial expenses from someone and I am working to convert it into a usable format for the blog. I feel less comfortable sharing my own personal expenses; I'm not ready for that yet, but given the willingness of a Struggler who has been reading the blog to share with you, I will be posting that information today.
On a brighter note, it looks like Chump's hateful blog has just about come to its' end. I never saw on a blog on such a useful topic grow to such extreme acrimonious comments in such a short period. It has been widely suspected that Chump simply posts anonymously many times. It is well known that he deletes most comments that are critical of him.
Good riddance!
Why, what happened to Chump's blog?
People like pretending that Chump's blog is dying every time a few days or weeks pass without a new post. I'm sure if/when there is news to report, the blog will be back in action.
11:35 - I wouldn't be too optimistic about Chump being out for good. He seems to go quiet for a while and then comes back even worse. I wonder if he is getting the message that he is driving a hateful / unhelpful process or if he is just getting prepared for another one of his silly "scoops". I guess we will see. Like you I hope he either hangs up his keyboard or turns the conversation into a more productive vein. Unfortunately, he has missed every chance to do so in the past.
Iy doesn't matter; his blog has no validity anymore (other than a great place for lashon hara!)
The truth is, his own reputation is so decimated that he cannot possibly reveal his true identity.
I don't think Chump is finished. There's still a path to success, but there is no path to absolution. It's hard running a blog. I feel bad for Chump in some ways, because he's backed himself into a terrible corner. Even if he reinvents the blog now and becomes a successful proponent of change and improves the yeshiva situation, he still can't reveal himself. There are some things that can't be unsaid, and so the Chump must forever stay behind the curtain.
That said, I don't think I'll ever say anything that smashes reputations, and yet I still won't reveal who I am. Sometimes, it's just not worth the trouble.
I'm sure Chump will be back to raise the curtain on things happening in the Jewish tuition community in the future. I just hope that they're productive posts without anger in any way.
Good luck, Chump.
I'm with Anon 10:05 - $100 a month is hardly "little bits of money." I know the Suzie Ormand types like to say if you just cut out your $4/day Starbucks habit, that's over $100/month, but if you don't have an obvious $4/day habit to cut, $100/month is not "little bits of money."
Avi,
I posted the budget I received from a fellow Struggler and I have to say, I don't see the $100 a month Starbucks habit in the budget.
Is it possible that the stories of all those Strugglers running into Lazy Bean and sitting there all day laughing about receiving scholarship money is just a myth? Can't be!
Post a Comment