Yoni has kindly shared some more information about his situation. I did particularly watch with a careful eye at what the posts would be like, and sure to form, some of the commenters couldn't resist complaining about the expenses. Given what I read, I do wonder about the impact from having your salaries cut by $25,000. That's $18,000 after tax, or more than the amount that they are short on tuition. I think that there are always helpful tips that we can give each other (coupon clipping, for example), but I am not sure that they make a $18,000 difference in a person's annual budget. So here are some additional pieces of information from Yoni.
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We are a two-income family. Not going to discuss what professions, but after taxes, this is what i bring home. it may well get better in the future, but this is the story today. Recession has hit both of our salaries and taken us to where we are. we tried once to find a solution for a housekeeper or babysiter that could let my wife leave very early in the morning and return much alter in the evening, but it was too expensive and wouldn't have made my wife much more money. It was hard to find someone who wanted to work only from 7-9 and from 4-6 every day. that meant less pay for my wife because she cant take a better job in her field. my wife is flexible with her work hours at a more accomodating job. that's just to be home for the older ones. the baby's childcare costs is covered a different way and isnt in my budget. if it was, i think the cheapest place we saw was 8-10 thousand a year..
No amount put into 401K
Medical Insurance through work
The family does look for sales and coupons when they shop
.
The house was between 410 and 460 thousand dollars. it is not a mansion. I am not interested in giving more information because I don't want to even give people a chance to identify us. when we bought our house, it was more than affordable given our combined salaries. we also wanted to get out of our apartment which was too small for 4 people and we already had 5 people. got a good mortgage at the time, made a good downpyament. I think refinance rates are lower now, but can't afford the costs to refinance.
The family has two cars, neither is a luxury car. One is financed, a used car. the other is a relatively newer minivan, but our lease price is far more affordable than trying to scrape together the thousands necessary to buy a slightly older van and we didn't want to buy a much older van because of the risk of breaking down and losing the money put in. It was cheaper for us to come up with $300 a month than it is to come up with the lump sum payment, especially with our paycuts
Food budget is based on food and a lot of things bought at stop and shop, glatt express, pathmark or shoprite. includes paper goods and things like that. going to 5 different stores just to shop every week is not something we do. we buy economically in a few stores and use a discount store too. we do our best. we dont eat out and we dont have fancy meals during the week. shabbos is not takeout.
we do give tzedakah. i didnt include it in my budget tho.
health drugs medicines etc. does not include the medical insurance from work. its copays drugs, flu shots, things like that
appliance and toy purchases actually seems low. it's just a budget, but when something breaks like a dishwasher or air conditioner unit, all of those expenses to fix it and maybe buy a new one go in there. i dont remember if my lawnmower went in there, but i have one and mow my own grass. wish I could afford a gardener, but it's not in the cards.
specific message for the person who thinks I have an iPhone, HBO, and steak: I hope you don't lose all of your money someday. do these people really think that i purposely spend my money on other things, just so i can get a bigger scholarship?
specific message for the person who thinks that it's somehow better if i know that my scholarship is really tzedakah. I know. I know my scholarship is tzedaka from other full paying parents. But what my situation sounded similar was that i'm still paying a sizable amount of tuition. is it full tuition? no. does it cover the cost of my children to go to the school? probably not. but i'm paying something.
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I hope that answered some of the questions from yesterday's comments. I thank Yoni for sharing this with us, and as I mentioned when I started the blog, I welcome and encourage other Strugglers to contact me to share their stories. Forget about the Chumps. They just want to complain about you; I want people to understand our situation, so please send me an email at "strugglingwho", I'm on gmail.
91 comments:
Yoni
If the recession has cut your salary and your annual income is less than before (not bonus, but actual salaries), then you deserve a scholarship. You are in a situation where you did things correctly, bought a house you could afford, but life threw you a curveball. Hopefully, the economy will improve and your salaries will increase. Until that time, I believe the community has a responsibility to help you. One question, before the economic downturn, would you have been able to afford full tuition?
My opinion remains the same for those who purchased homes/luxuries without accounting for tuition. That is poor planning and I am not sure if they deserve the communities support
It was hard to find someone who wanted to work only from 7-9 and from 4-6 every day. that meant less pay for my wife because she cant take a better job in her field.
Not to criticize, but it's a shame you don't have a little financial cushion. Paying somewhat more today for daycare might result in earning a lot more in the not-so-distant future, which might enable you to get off scholarship, which I'm assuming is an important goal.
Have you approached neighbors that are stay-at-home parents about earning some extra income between 7-9 and 4-6 daily. I know of a handful of parents that do not advertise that they will babysit, but are happy for the opportunity when approached.
I think refinance rates are lower now, but can't afford the costs to refinance.
Most refi places will include the fees in the new loan if you can afford the payment. Usually it's worth it (by a lot)!
The family has two cars
How do you get insurance for 2 cars at only $1300/year???? Wow, that's awesome!
Food budget is based on food and a lot of things bought at stop and shop, glatt express, pathmark or shoprite. includes paper goods and things like that. going to 5 different stores just to shop every week is not something we do. we buy economically in a few stores and use a discount store too. we do our best. we dont eat out and we dont have fancy meals during the week. shabbos is not takeout.
You're still spending WAY too much on food. Start using coupons strategically (i.e. stocking up when items are on sale while using a coupon at the same time) as much as possible, and plan efficient shopping expeditions on Sundays or one night during the week. Also for fruits and vegetables, buy what is in season and on sale each week. We are a family of 7 and spend much less than $1000/month in an area where food (especially kosher food) is more expensive!
I don't get it.
Guy's on scholarship but gives charity (other people's money) and says that some cost savings and better jobs are "not worth it"?
The attitude is a weak one. Sorry people who truly feel they are in need, do EVERYTHING to get out. Clearly this is an example of the corruption that the system creates.
SW,
You may not realize this, but virtually all of us "Chumps", were once Struggling Who's too. That is we made the same incomes as "yoni". We did what we needed to do and built up to our current situations.
When we were struggling, we didn't spend $1,000 on groceries and drive nearly as nice cars as this "Yoni" says he does. There are other examples, but you get the point.
Our monthly average for all food and household goods (including diapers) has not changed more than $50 a month since we were newly married and it is far, far, far below what you are spending. I've always been frugal, but I had to learn a lot about frugal spending as a married person. Between smarter shopping (both food and second hand) and learning to cook (and freeze) healthy, inexpensive meals, we spend little on groceries and are able avoid things like interest and car payments.
I don't want to give advice where it won't be taken, but if you can cut your $1050 (includes Shabbat) food budget down by only $400 a month, after 3 years you will have $14,400 for your next (quality used) vehicle purchase which you can subsequently drive into the ground while putting aside money for the next vehicle you will purchase in cash.
I realize that "Struggling Who" is attempting to make a case for the "Strugglers", and I'm watching him develop the case with much interest, but this scenario simply does not make a strong case.
One thing left out is how much tuition they are paying? We can discuss whats appropriate..., but if they ate paying $1000/month they are not struggling. They have $400/month left over and are clearly not eating rice and beans every night and never seeing their kids because working 2 jobs. To be clear, I am not saying they should be, but to me that is someone who is struggling.
So, how much tuition assistance do they get from the BC school?
Yoni sounds like a few people I know. Yeshiva cutting tuition to $0won't help many people in this economy. The finances simply don't add up. There are a few choices. 1. look for a new job (not so easy). 2. Go to the scholarship committee and project Ezra to help you over the hump. 3. put your kids in JFS. 4. move to a more affordable town if this is long term.
Reminder.
JFS Teaneck open house tonight at Greengart home 28 Grayson place at 8 pm.
See you there!
So does anyone know how many people showed up to the open house (besides the 3 families that already send there). Very curious how much interest there really is in this option.
Mark, Tesyaa,
Yoni's situation is similar to others that I've spoken to. My wife and I personally have (in the past) searched for someone who could watch our own children in those time windows (7-9 AM and 4-6 PM). I'll also leave silent the "busing" issue. Even if you can find a SAHM to watch your preschooler and other kids, someone has to bring them to school. Busing, especially from Bergenfield, is an additional expense not otherwise included in many budgets.
You can find someone to watch your kids in those hours, but they're not the best caregivers in the world.
Yet again, another case of people thinking that they deserve the best on the backs of Chumps.
I will say that the car insurance looks low. Yoni is also poorly prepared for the eventual breakdown of an appliance. One heating unit breakdown and Yoni's back in my pocket for more scholarship money. Maybe I should save him the money and go to PC Richard now and buy him a new refrigerator. Something in stainless steel, lined with diamonds.
Every reason Struggling Who (and Yoni) gives is plausible, but the underlying tone is "it's too hard", especially when EVERY situation gets the same response. It's too hard to shop around at cheaper stores, too hard to get childcare so you can get on a better career path, too hard to mow your lawn at midnight (I know this was just an example). No one wants to do things that are hard ... but everyone wants to send their kid to an expensive yeshiva. The people who make it work, without taking charity, are the people doing the hard things, scrambling to get their kids to school, scrambling to get to the stores before they close, taking care of the house themselves and not getting as much done around the house as they'd like. That's the reality.
Tesyaa, Ortho,
Sorry, should have broadened my comment slightly. Remember, we're using Yoni as a case study, when everyone's situations are different. I appreciate the thoughts around shaving the food bill, but there are undoubtedly expenses that pop up throughout the year that aren't planned into Yoni's budget.
The reason I asked that we not pick at individual line items is because we can all find line items for which we pay more and for which we pay less. I'll use Mark's car insurance as an example, while my own personal life insurance for my wife and me is much higher than Yoni's. The point is, that this is a representative sample of a Struggler's budget, for which the ultimate results is around $15,000 of extra money before camps and tuition. I've already noticed several areas where Yoni pays a different price than I do. It doesn't change that the fact that we're both Strugglers.
I'll bring it back to the original question. How do we handle a "Yoni"? Do we kick Yoni's out of the school and community? And what's the business plan there? Do we benefit from someone paying 2/3 tuitions? Does the yeshiva break even with someone paying 8-10 thousand? And if so, what is the big Chump spending $15 thousand-plus going to?
Tessya,
I didn't say "too hard"... we flat-out couldn't find anyone.
People wanted either a full day, a half day with 4-6 straight hours, and told us to put the kids in full-time day care (8-6) which was too expensive. And it makes sense.. why would some SAHM be interested in a job that keeps her unoccupied and not busy from 10-4 (presumably the very hours her own children are in school), while the minute that her own children arrive home from school, they arrive with a group of babysit kids who then disrupt her life and preparation for her kids' bedtimes. We searched very carefully for a "aunt" type who didn't have her own kids, but there were no candidates for the job. Period.
How do we handle a "Yoni"?
I think the community has to avoid letting new "Yonis" create themselves. There should be a cap on mortgage payments and car payments that's counted toward tuition assistance. If your payment is more than $XXXX, only $XXXX will be allowed in determining scholarship. So if you buy too much house, that's your decision, but you can only take credit for the maximum allowable scholarship family mortgage payment. If you are used to fancy food, OK, but you can only "write off" $800 per month for a family of five (for example). Special medical needs and things like that mitigate, of course, just as now.
If the rules are known before families move in and/or buy their first house, hopefully people will make better decisions.
Tesyaa,
That is just how the scholarship system works at my son's school now. It is already being done this way. the school has an expectation of what my expenses are and i'm told to pay a certan amount with the rest being a scholarship. I can't buy caviar every day and then claim that I am broke.
SW, I am intimately familiar with childcare issues. First of all, you may not be offering enough $$$ - a lot of people try to get away with paying $10 per hour, while $15 might be more appropriate for the inconvenient split shift. There's also a chance you and your wife could stagger your hours, especially if you are somewhat established in your job. You can work from 10 to 8, while she works from 7 to 3. I didn't say it's easy. In fact, I said it's hard. But that's how some people scramble to avoid taking charity.
You have to always be thinking outside the box, looking for ideas you wouldn't really consider if you were not on the edge financially.
I agree. We need the community to adopt rules in advance and publish them. That'll stop people from moving here and ripping off us Chumps.
Here we go. We're entering Chump land.
When is the guy who makes the eating cat food comments signing on?
How to deal with Yoni's. . . . I think the free market will eventually set in and there won't be much to deal with.
Personally, when our tuition increases to $xx,xxx, which is what we can do while still functioning in a financially prudent way, we will have little choice but to take our kids out of day school. We aren't candidates for scholarship having been extremely careful with spending and saving for the last XX number of years.
I think the question Struggling Who (and more importantly scholarship committees, school boards, and administrations) need to ask alongside "How do we handle a "Yoni"?" is "What happens if too many full tuition payers decide to take their money elsewhere?"
SL,
"What happens if too many full tuition payers decide to take their money elsewhere?"
Not the right question. JFS is a perfectly valid option in Northern NJ, but there are only a handful of families sending there (it's growing, but still a very small number). Charter schools in Florida have not put a serious dent in local day school enrollment, either. Even if paying parents did pull their kids out, would the day schools lower their prices in response? Conservative day schools saw enrollment drop (because parents sent to public school instead) but I didn't hear of any which subsequently made significant tuition cuts - they needed to keep the board members/large donors happy and that means providing a psuedo-prep school environment.
I think the better question is, "what happens when you get too many Yoni's, and there aren't enough Chumps/Winthrops?" At a certain point, the number of parents applying for scholarship will vastly exceed the amount of money available for scholarship, and people will be turned away, or the schools will be forced to close. That day may be pushed out a bit if the economy takes off and large donors can be found, but otherwise the demographics suggest we'll be there within the next few years - when the wave of elementary school children (pushing the local schools to 5 and 6 class per grade per school) all hit high school at the same time as today's late 20's/early 30's couples (who entered the job market at a terrible time and yet have unrealistically high expectations) have their second/third/fourth children entering the elementary school system. At that point, raising the tuition further won't help because it will simply push Chumps into the Struggling pool.
So Avi - how many people showed up last night. Seems like it is a state secret that no one is talking about. Do you see the interest from BC families or is this debate a philosophical argument?
Avi,
I understand why you need to rattle the cages. The more people that believe that their precious school will go under soon, the more likely they will be to pull their kids out now and send them to JFS.
That's not gonna happen. We're in the worst recession we've had in decades, and people have found a way to muddle through. I made a lot less this year than ever before, but it was still enough to cover tuition. People are still paying their tuitions, even if that meant stay-cations this past summer. Tuition costs appear to have stopped their atmospheric growth and maybe now we'll get slower cost growth. Maybe. Even if we don't get slower cost growth, parents are still paying tuition. As angry as they must be from the mistakes of the past several years, the number of students is at an all-time high. No crisis here. Tuition keeps coming in.
I can see the financial issues coming... more Strugglers, fewer Chumps, more Chumps becoming Strugglers. Eventually, schools have to face the music. They will, but it won't be a mass closing followed by a huge JFS contigent. Shools will more likely consolidate organically. One legacy school's bankruptcy is another legacy school's benefit. Pick up all those kids with minimal additional expense, sell the old school's building. Or maybe the school will downsize their scholarship awards, forcing some of the Strugglers to try JFS. But it won't go to zero scholarships, which means JFS will always be left with BC legacy schools' scraps. A few kids here, a few kids there, but nothing to make it a newly popular option. Schools will continue to raise money from wealthy donors to plug any perceived gaps in tuition, and will as a last resort fire the administrators they don't need, before they go bankrupt.
I'm very confident that the 8-10K being paid by many strugglers more than covers their tuition. Full paying parents, even as they diminish, also can cover the parents who can't even afford the $8-10K. For now, at least.
Anon 3:49,
It is not important how many people showed up. There are probably several families that didn't go, who will make a school visit to JFS. What's important is that people who want to consider JFS, do so. Those who want to pay legacy school tuition can do so, without enjoying the failure or cursing the success of JFS. It's just childish to root for JFS to fail in BC.
SW - I agree. Choices are good. 2 reasons to ask - 1) it is really important to know how many people are really in the chump camp else why are we all wasting time on these blogs (beyond entertainment and distraction during the day) and 2) as per Fed Up above - seems that some people can't help themselves from rattling the cages and predicting doom and gloom. It would be nice to get some balance in the discussion and call people out when they are full of BS (Chump being the most notorious but not only offender).
Anon 4:01,
I think we're getting a balance on this blog; can't say I saw that on the other blog. That's really one of the reasons I started this. Do you think we're missing something? I've got a couple of different angles in the works.
Struggling
You are getting good balance on your blog. Cant say I agree with all of it, but that is the nature of discussion.
Couple of angles to explore:
1) JFS- why send there and live here? What do those families plan for high school?
2)Point I keep mentioning- What should a BC school do about those who didnt account for tuition when purchasing a home/leasing cars?
3)If 8-10K is real cost of educating, why should schools charge 13K? Why shouldnt schools charge 10K and say no scholarship? (From what I hear, this is the LI/Queens model)
Looking forward to responses
SW - I agree with honest and think you are getting a good balance even when I don't agree with some of the perspectives you post. Maybe the chumps just haven't found the blog yet :-) - that is a good thing.
With regards to honest's questions - I too wonder why live in BC and send to JFS. I've heard nice things about SI. Why not go full in and save on the costs of your home and all the incidentals as well. At a minimum, why make the kids deal with the commute and shabbos playdate issue when you can solve that for them (if it really is an issue - don't want to start a debate).
On the question of why the schools charge 13k - simple answer is that most people can afford it. When people say it only costs 10k they likely mean the marginal cost of putting an additional child in the classroom or something close to it. The variable costs are low, fully loaded is going to be close to what is charged minus scholarship (mostly offset by some level of donations). So the real costs may not be 13k but certainly aren't 10k unless you are the 20th kid in a class of 20. But then again - whose kid is really the 20th? The school is incented to fill up every seat so worth taking some scholarship students at partial payments but if the number gets too high - just doesn't work. Someone has to pay.
Honest,
I'm not saying that it doesn't happen, but that's why I initially created a different group for those people; the "Helpless" category was for people who never ever had a chance of affording Bergen County, and knew that they would have to rely on scholarships to get by. "Strugglers" are just that: struggling, but very likely would ultimately be able to afford Bergen County.
At the very least, the "crazies" who insist on cost savings through bareboned budgets and elimination of scholarships are cutting off their nose to spite their face. Poor quality schooling is not going to make your school attractive to full-paying parents. Getting rid of even partial scholarship payers is foolish, because you forfeit the revenue without a corresponding cost savings. (the old incremental student argument)
Strugglers deserve more respect than we're receiving, and the goal of this blog is to broaden people's acceptance of scholarships as an important part of a community. Mind you, accepting it or not is not going to change your tuition, but it would be nice if everyone appreciated the complexities of the situations and of all parties involved.
That said, I am not ready to indict the Helpless crowd; I would like to start with getting people to understand that the Strugglers are not evil and work my way from there. By the way, there are a lot more Strugglers than there are Helpless.
Sorry, the Strugglers are in fact evil. Maybe not movie villain evil, but by any objective moral framework, they are evil.
They are comparatively wealthy families, earning double the median income in the country, and in the top 20% of the United States overall. On that income, they could live in many neighborhoods that accommodate those that earn in the bottom 80% of American income.
However, they WANT to live in a particular area so that their neighbors share some perceived narrow religious viewpoint.
To satisfy their wants, they put their hands out and demand (and get) subsidies from those neighbors.
On $85k, a Mensch would commute an extra 20 minutes and live in a more affordable town. Choosing to live like you earn $120k and pass the bill to your neighbors?
That's evil.
"Strugglers" are just that: struggling, but very likely would ultimately be able to afford Bergen County
That point is debatable. I don't think most strugglers can really make a go of it in Bergen County. At the very least they will deny themselves any retirement savings and college savings, even if they can somehow swing tuition.
Also, you don't buy things now that you HOPE to be able to afford 5-10 years down the road.
For most of the Strugglers, it's wishful thinking to be able to afford Bergen County. Sure, maybe you can afford it - if you NEVER have ANY unexpected expenses: no surprise home repair bills, no surprise medical expenses, no surprise car expenses, etc. Everything has to go perfectly for Strugglers to ultimately make it. Remember, tuition is going up faster than salaries. And if your wife isn't getting good work experience now, good luck getting a good job when the kids are finally in school all day.
For every Struggler who makes it, ten will be a drain on the community, a "Helpless".
(Not a state secret, just very busy at work this afternoon/evening.)
My living room was full, and attendance was an improvement over last year (though several people who RSVPd did not make it). We expect that today's handful of BC parents will be joined by another handful this coming year.
Fed Up,
Nothing could be further from the truth. I desperately want the local schools to succeed, because they are wonderful! But I challenge you to find anyone who thinks that the current path of tuition increases is sustainable long term.
I also feel like I've found an amazing alternative that could work for some of my friends and neighbors in JFS, Strugglers and Chumps alike. Thus far, JFS has proven to be an excellent school for my children (caveat: I only have two of them there, and it's been, what? two months?). But JFS is not a solution to the tuition crisis - it could not possibly absorb more than a small fraction of BC's day school children.
Anon 5:35 -
We live in BC because we like it here. Teaneck is very nice. I'm sure some would say that our kids are commuting so we can live in a nice community where we are already settled, but a) they are settled in, too! b) the commute is not appreciably longer than the commute they had in the past. They just like the supervised cozy van a LOT more than the unsupervised bus. I know people don't believe me, but my kids get picked up at 7:20 AM every morning and school starts at 8 AM. Would we consider moving to SI? Anything is possible, but we don't have any current plans to do so.
What are our plans for high school? It's a bit early to make definitive plans, but a fair number of JFS kids are going to TABC and Maayanot, and those would be a reasonable place to start regardless based on our hashkafa. One of the primary reasons we thought to save money at JFS for elementary school is so that we'll be able to afford high school. And braces. And some college/retirement saving. And tzedaka to causes like Project Ezrah, Chai Lifeline, and YACHAD.
Yoni -
The most telling line in this update is:
"we do give tzedakah. i didnt include it in my budget tho." (Emphasis added)
A large part of that struggling feeling comes from not knowing where the money is going to, and consequently worrying that there won't be enough.
There are basically two ways to operate a household budget
(1) "pay yourself first" - where every time get paid, you set some amount of the money aside in savings and simply do not touch it, period
(2) Every line item has a target, and you track your expenses to that target.
I am a student, i.e. I have no time and a very small income. However, I'm not struggling financially, and it has nothing to do with my income. It is entirely because I track every single expense against an annual target, and can see from day to day how I am doing. (I used to work and I used method (1) since it is easier in many respects, though less precise.)
Nuqotw,
Diplomatically, I'll say that there's no one solution for all parties involved. Something works for you, that's great. But your condescending tone is not appreciated. First of all, there's more than two ways to manage a budget. Second, your comments, whether accurate or not, are completely dismissive of the underlying issues faced by a Struggler: too many expenses, not enough income. It's not like if all of the Strugglers suddenly came up with a budget, they could handle $15K extra per kid. I happen to think my budget numbers are pretty good, but it doesn't make tuition viable.
In my experience, if you're living a relatively frugal life, you can squeeze some savings out of each line of your budget, but you're not finding 20K in savings.
Anon 2:11,
I leave charity out of budget because I don't consider it a mandatory part of my budget. I'd skip it if I couldn't afford it. Why include it in my budget?
More importantly... How many of you Strugglers don't even both to keep a budget? How do you even know what you're spending and what you can't afford? Maybe if you had a budget and planned your life better, you'd see that you couldn't afford the newest Odyssey with the Nav system and DVD player. You'd decide not to have that 8th child. You'd decide that you needed to watch your money more carefully.
It's not like if all of the Strugglers suddenly came up with a budget, they could handle $15K extra per kid.
So Strugglers can barely afford any tuition? What are they doing owning a house? Or more to the point, why are they sending their kids to private school?
I thought the idea was that tuition is too high, not that tuition should be free.
Anon 2:11
You made two telling statements: "too may expenses, not enough income" and "I happen to think my budget numbers are pretty good, but it doesn't make tuition viable"
Why did tuition become non-viable? Is it only because they are willing to give financial aid? How did you get too many expenses? Was it from buying a house too soon or SAHM or other ways? Not every struggler case is the same.
Unfortunately, what this blog is making clear is that many "strugglers" have an oversized sense of entitlement. Just because you WILL earn a certain salary doesn't mean you can live like you make it NOW. This is why many people do not have the compassion for strugglers that they feel they deserve. Many of us have employed "deferred gratification" and we feel that the struggler has not done so. Sorry if that hurts, but its what I feel. If you disagree, explain why
Anon 2:11-
Your basis is, "if you live a relatively frugal life". Part of the Strugglers vs. Chumps debate is what constitutes a frugal life.
My family's take home salary was similar to Struggler's last year. We did not buy a home- we rented. We chose to not have another child at this time. We BOUGHT a 2 year old used KIA (much less than the Odyssey) for no money down and a really low interest rate for $240/month. We lowered our cell phone plans and eliminated the landline altogether. We made sure that we were consistently saving the amount of the expected mortgage payment on our home + tuitions before we went looking for one. We looked at BC tuitions, realized it would be prohibitive and BOUGHT ELSEWHERE. A chump on the lower end of chump spectrum who is paying full tuition, but lives a no frills frugal life can be understandibly upset by someone who puts their hand out BEFORE they measure all the ways they can cut from tehir OWN life.
The key learning for me is there is an extremely deep need for education for both strugglers and chumps. All the criticism above apply equally to both and both groups seem to not have a clue. Someone needs to help these people understand that they need to reevaluate their priorities and make much better financial decisions. Maybe this blog is a start. Maybe the community needs something more formal.
Anon 3:29, there is only so far education can go to changing the fact that full tuition for a large family is a non-starter for at least 50% of the community. Tuition is incredibly high and even if lowered significantly, private school for 4-6 kids is out of reach, especially for people who start to have kids young and don't establish their careers first.
I only see a few scenarios that the modern orthodox community can continue to promise every child a yeshiva education. One is not pretty and the other two no one seems to want:
1) Couples can choose to forgo any kind of retirement savings, college savings, emergency funds, etc. Every spare penny goes to tuition. It's quite likely they'll end up as charity cases at some point in their lives. This isn't a good idea.
2) People go back to living like their bubbies and zaydies, in two-bedroom apartments, no luxuries, no extras, etc., while managing to save for retirement and maybe something towards college tuition. No one wants to live like their bubbies and zaydies did. [hint - due to entitlement issues]
3) Copy the chassidishe model with very cheap schools, supported by a few benefactors, that charge $2000 per kid per year and offer next to no amenities or secular studies. No one wants this, or should want this. In this scenario you live a comfortable middle class lifestyle and save for retirement, but your kids are going to be living third-world lives.
The obvious alternative has something to do with government funding, but it is not vouchers. It is a government subsidized educational system that is already in place. It is called PUBLIC SCHOOL.
Anon 3:29
The chump has evaluated their priorities and has decided that kids + tuition + larger home is more important than retirement savings. Many may disagree with their choices, but it is their decision to make.
The struggler has made decisions, but unfortunately they rely upon the generosity of their neighbors to fulfill them. Paying Parent is to be commended and shown to be the example of what to do.
I think we need a better definition of struggler. Is it the family who is receiving help now, but expects to be able to pay full in 3-5 years? Is a family who was paying full, but due to unemployment/medical expenses can no longer do so considered a struggler? How about the lawyer/finance person whose bonus is way down? Im sure many of us have different opinions depending on the situation.
Tesyaa,
You made your comfort with public school well-known on the other blog. It's a miniscule minority view. I'm a Chump and I want my tuition lowered ASAP, but not if it means someone has to send their kid to public school. Are the yeshivas overpriced? Yes. Can we fire an admin or two without missing them? I wish we would. Could we start charging teachers tuition for their own kids? I'll start the petition. Should we kick kids out and send them to public school?
I would rather pay full tuition than put someone else's kids into public school. If that family needs a scholarship, I'll bitch and moan about it because I believe in people taking responsibility for their actions, but I'm not punishing their kid. Even if it means I have to further delay the gratification of the long-awaited Europe trip I've been saving up for.
Anon, public school has nothing to do with Chumps vs. Strugglers. It's just a fact that the frum community cannot sustain private school for large families; maybe in the short run the community can struggle along, but in the long run, I don't see how. You say you will sacrifice so another family can keep its kids in yeshiva; that's commendable -- what happens when each paying family has to pay for five other families' children's tuition, then ten families?
If public school is abhorrent to you, you can still encourage the community in the direction of homeschooling. But universal private school tuition for large families, for an entire community, even when many families can't pay a cent - I don't see how that's sustainable.
The chump has evaluated their priorities and has decided that kids + tuition + larger home is more important than retirement savings. Many may disagree with their choices, but it is their decision to make.
The struggler has made decisions, but unfortunately they rely upon the generosity of their neighbors to fulfill them.
If many frum families are not saving a cent for retirement, you don't think there will be a "retirement crisis" in forty years? Instead of scholarships for tuition you will be liquidating your own savings for others' living expenses & nursing homes. Are you going to let a whole cohort of old, educated, professional, and now impoverished Jews starve?
As long as you are part of a commumnity where Jews are Arevim Ze LaZeh, you will always be responsible for other Jews' bad financial choices.
I'm not saying that's wrong - but it's your problem just as much as theirs.
Re childcare:
As a working mom, I can relate to this issue. In my opinion, if the price of tuition demands that both parents work, there should be some sort of arrangement that makes this feasible.
I'm in Toronto, not Bergen County, but I can say that a major factor in our choice of Jewish day school was the availability of before and after school care. Yes, it is a long day for the kids, but I am able to work in my profession because I can drop the kids off as early as 7:30 a.m. and pick them up as late as 6:00 p.m.
It would be great if parents could work or lobby to organize that. Failing that, schools could keep a register of parents willing to provide before/after school care and/or carpooling. If some parents are struggling with layoffs or seeing if it is possible to stay home with very young children, and others struggle to deal with childcare, it could be a great shidduch.
There is a major flaw in this whole discussion about spending.
We are free to set our own budgets for our families. Some of us like more cars / Some of us like more food (too much for me). We chose to spend on what we want. I know some families that skimp on luxury cars, but go on fany vacations. Their money, they do what they want. I certainly don't care what they do.
What Struggling Who and others on scholarship don't apprecite and apparently don't act on (See yoni's budget and Struggling's lack of noticing the point) is that when you are being supported by someone else as in tuition subsidies from your neighbors, your neighbors are going to care about what you are spending your money on so that you need scholarship.
I am horrified by the spending that our scholarship families are spending if this blog is any indication of reality. As full paying tuition paying parents who works our tails off, I am angry. I didn't sign up in our beautiful religion to support immature adults (age only - not based on maturity) live beyond their means on my back.
For all of you scholarship happy supporters of this blog, you better hope that none of the winthrops read this blog. Are all scholarship families 90-120k families that demand to live like 150-200k families? That's what it seems like.
MH,
Correct, the 200k-250k "Chumps" and the 100k-150k "Strugglers" have nearly identical lives. The difference in income, 100k pre-tax, or really 60k post-tax because of phase outs, etc., is almost entirely tuition.
That was the chump gripe, since the Scholarship system basically exempts the first 100k-150k in income, depending on how much house/car you have, they have the same life... maybe the Chump is able to shield $15k in 401(k) saings, but that's about it.
Here is the real kicker... in 15 years, when it is time for college, Chump and Struggler's kids fill out the FAFSA. Neither family has anything saved up, but Chump's income is higher.
As a result, Chump's kids graduate with 100k in student loans, Struggler's Kids 25k.
It's true that there are many ways to administer household finances, not just the two that I mentioned. However, I am comfortable with the notion that "budget" encompasses a very narrow set of them.
Kol yisrael areivim zeh lazeh cuts both ways - it means that those with more are (often) willing to pay more tuition than those with less. It also means that *everyone* needs to live a more frugal life if the kahal wants universal yeshiva / day school education. In particular, those who want tuition assistance need to do their part, i.e. live a more frugal life. What a lot of full-payers are hearing is that Yoni doesn't want to do that. That's what is bothering them, perhaps more than the money in and of itself.
What's being described as "struggling" on this blog is really not struggling at all. It appears Yoni and his family have clothing, food, shelter, and they live secure in the knowledge that these things are not going anywhere. Let's all count our blessings.
Nuqotw,
Aren't you missing something? The guy doesn't pay for his camp, his vacation, or his tuition. He's way over budget when you factor in those.
Nope, I'm not missing that. He is obviously spending more than he earns when you factor in that kind of stuff. But he doesn't need to pay for tuition/camp/vacation/etc. for his family to be fed, clothed and sheltered. He might be struggling to pay for what he wants, but it appears that the needs are covered. Choosing to spend more than one earns is not the same as truly struggling to make ends meet even for the necessities. This is what I mean by "count your blessings".
Nuqotw -
I agree with you - up to a point. By and large, the Struggler is struggling to pay for things they don't need. Struggling to pay for school ski trips and iPods and dinners out - things that come easily to more affluent neighbors. Food, mortgage, and tuition are all covered (either directly, or with tuition assistance). However, there is no slack in a Struggler's budget. When the roof or boiler goes, where do they come up with the $5,000 to replace it? If c"v someone gets sick and there are medical bills/copays, where does that money come from? (Answer: credit cards) Living without a safety net is a struggle, and above a certain amount, any savings Strugglers build up with frugal living goes to the school, discouraging frugality. Or, more accurately, discouraging frugality for those who don't feel obligated to pay as much of their own tuition as possible.
I am not very sympathetic with Yoni. here's why:
1. The house was between 410 and 460 thousand dollars. it is not a mansion. I am not interested in giving more information because I don't want to even give people a chance to identify us. when we bought our house, it was more than affordable given our combined salaries. we also wanted to get out of our apartment which was too small for 4 people and we already had 5 people. got a good mortgage at the time, made a good downpyament. I think refinance rates are lower now, but can't afford the costs to refinance.
You can refinance for free. All costs are rolled into the mortgage. Also, I find it hard to understand why a family in a 450k house should receive charity.
2. Food budget is based on food and a lot of things bought at stop and shop, glatt express, pathmark or shoprite. includes paper goods and things like that. going to 5 different stores just to shop every week is not something we do.
Why don't you just use costco?
Also, don't you think you just send your kids to a JFS instead of burdening everyone else? Its not like there is only one yeshiva in the world.
I kind of resent the fact that not only do I have to struggle to pay my own full tuition, but I aactually have to pay more to accomodate Yoni (because he refuses to change his lifestyle).
Is that really fair to everyone?
Avi,
when the Struggler says he would like to pay full tuition, he's not exactly lying. He would like to, but not enough to seriously economize. It's not just that the fruits of his frugality will go directly to the school. It's also that people have given up on ever being able to pay full tuition, maybe before they've even had kids. They rationalize that it is just too hard, that "no one" can do it except the superwealthy, and it's OK to just pay whatever sum they can and don't worry about the rest. It's not that they don't care, exactly. It's just that they tell themselves it's so far out of reach that it's not even worth trying.
And if that's the case, why not have an bakery dessert on Shabbos or a better car? Because everyone else does.
tesyaa: Unfortunately, I'm afraid what you say is true.
Avi
Without him telling us how much he is paying in tuition, no one can answer about savings. Before tuition, he has $1500/month. How much is tuition and how much is saved. Additionally, big difference between house and medical expenses. House expenses can be somewhat expected. Buy the house and the furnace is 35 years old, chances are it is going to go at somepoint. Medical (c"v) is unexpected which is why many have said that those with medical expenses deserve help.
What I am taking from this situation is in practicality for a chump to change their situation they have to move. Is it fair? No, but it's the truth. For whatever reason the schools won't change the scholarship formula and, as Yoni and SW have shown, there is no incentive for strugglers to change. Therefore, chimps are on their own. I don't think a blog, meeting or theats will do anything.
One problem with JFS being solution. When it takes off and there is a full bus from Teaneck, how long will the commute be then? It will take 40 min within Teaneck itself.
Avi,
That's true, but that's about choices. I guess I was unclear. I don't have sympathy for someone who doesn't have enough money to cover his expenses as a direct consequence of choosing expenses that exceed the amount of money he has. Yes, Yoni and his family are financially vulnerable for exactly the reasons you describe. It's not a great situation. However, since they are not going to starve, and essentially choose to be in this position (choose to live in BC, choose to send their kids to a more expensive school, choose to finance rather than own their cars, etc.) I have a hard time drumming up the sympathy that I would have for someone who is truly struggling to put food on the table.
Whoa, I'm not letting Yoni off the hook - I was the first to point out that Yoni has too much house and too much car. Others think he spends too much on food as well. I'm just pointing out that eventually something in that house he can't afford breaks, and now he's in credit card debt, too. That's NOT a fun place to be, even if the Chumps are jealous of his TV and shiny new minivan.
This is amazing. Is it only frum Jews that can have a discussion about how someone can live in a place where he really can't afford to live? Send his kids to schools that he really can't afford? Buy cars that he really can't afford? Live in a home that he can't afford? etc.
It's like up is down, left is right, wrong is right, good is bad, and everything else mixed up and incorrect.
Honest,
That should not be an obstacle. JFS has committed to keeping commuting times down by having multiple vans (rather than a single bus) as the number of BC children going to JFS rises. This isn't wishful thinking; it's what JFS already does in Brooklyn (there are three separate vans).
Avi: Forget JFS as a solution. That ship has already sailed. I applaud your committment to the school, but there will never be much interest from Bergen County. No one moved here in order to send their elementary school kids to a Staten Island school. You can keep preaching about the commute; it doesn't matter and never will. Not even the 200k chump will send his kids there.
Anon 8:59,
JFS may not be a solution for the entire community, but it should certainly not be disregarded as an option. I live in BC, and when the time comes to pick a school for my kids, I will strongly consider JFS.
Anon 9:03 - your comments are telling and most likely confirm what 8:59 said. You would strongly consider it - of course. We all strongly consider many good options - but you won't commit to it. Fact is - you would rather send locally, even if it costs a lot more, and JFS is a last resort. This is very telling.
BTW - no criticism intended. Like many here, I've read all the blogs / comments about the "desire" and "need" for low cost solutions but time and again, reality provides there is no demand. Bat Torah is a prime example (though everyone wants to look the other way) - terrific girls high school that perfectly matches the haskafa or the BC community and has managed to keep tuition extraordinarily low - and struggles to attract girls who chose schools with tuition almost twice as high. Fact of the matter is that tuition is very low on the scale of decision criteria and social considerations are very high.
Anon 8:59, 8:58 (PLEASE choose a name, any name),
I agree that JFS is not a solution for the overall problem - JFS doesn't have the capacity to serve our entire community.
I also agree that most people choose schools here based on social criteria - where their friends are sending, followed by minor hashkafic differences.
But I'm far from ready to give up on JFS as an option for individual families, because despite what you read on the blogs, the #1 question I get asked is not, "who else is sending there?" or, "how long is the commute?" it's, "JFS, what's that?" Most people in Teaneck/Bergenfield don't even realize it exists.
JFS may not be a solution for the entire community
Of course not. Only for those that cannot afford the schools in BC!
Most of the folks in BC can afford the schools in BC, even if only just barely (i.e. chumps). But some segment cannot afford them, those are the people that need to look for solutions that they can afford. Same for housing, cars, etc. Another way of describing these actions is "real life".
Hi, Anon 8:59 PM here. (Sorry, I will choose a name, for now.)
When I say I will "strongly consider" JFS, I'm not just being polite, nor unrealistic. I am certainly not committing to JFS right now because (a) the decision is 3 years away for us so why would I commit to anything?, and (b) I haven't visited JFS, nor have I attended open houses for the BC schools. Making such an important decision based on hearsay alone seems foolish, and I haven't done all my fact-finding since it's very early (see (a)). However, I have learned a good deal about JFS and have been very impressed. It is quite possibly my first choice right now, but as I said, I am ill-informed (see (b)).
Mark- we can afford the elementary schools in BC. However, I'm not sure we'd be able to afford the tuition jump to high school. It's so many years away that I have no guarantee our salaries will keep up. Especially given that we're not sure how many kids we want. When I say "afford", I mean "afford while still being responsible and saving for retirement and rainy days". With the money we could save sending to JFS, affording high school would be no problem. Such a substantial savings might be worth the location-based inconveniences. Other than location, I see absolutely no downside to the school, and many plusses.
For the record, when I was a kid my school was 3 miles away, yet I still had to be at the bus stop an hour before school started. It wasn't a big deal. Not to mention, both of us work so our kids wouldn't be able to come home till after 5 regardless (which is the current situation with daycare).
Minnie - Mark- we can afford the elementary schools in BC. However, I'm not sure we'd be able to afford the tuition jump to high school.
If you spend less on elementary school and save the difference, will you be able to afford high school a little easier?
Hi Mark,
Yes, exactly my point. We could possibly afford high school even with BC elem schools, since by then our 401k's will be pretty well-funded, so we could potentially cut back on retirement savings. And we might have had promotions at work by then (but I don't want to count on that). But the immense savings of sending to JFS means I wouldn't have to choose between Frisch and funding 401k, for example. We are savers, so the $$ saved from JFS would not go to Pesach hotels or BMWs. It would go into the bank or conservative investments. Well, maybe 20% would go towards some fun stuff :-).
Minnie, you sound a lot like us. Well, at least a lot like we used to be. Now we have 5 kids (in Yeshiva day school). :-)
Shabbat Shalom Umevorach everyone!
B"H, we can afford BC elementary schools, but spending that much on tuition would gradually crowd out money for anything else (savings and tzedaka and braces and modest simchas and the ability to pay for high school). I'm not comfortable with that, especially not when JFS is half the price and equally good -- or better. On average, it's about the same time on the van, which is much safer/saner than the bus. They've had to give up having school friends who live nearby, but they haven't actually given up their local friends, who they see on weekends and over school breaks. JFS is an incredibly warm school environment, academic expectations are extremely high, and the parents/children are much lower key and less materialistic. And tuition, including transportation, is $8500, all in. No building fund, no scrip, no mandatory dinners, no security fee, etc. Yes savings, yes tzedaka, yes happy children. No stress.
Dear Avi:
Just move to Staten Island if you love it so much. I think its ludicrous to send little kids on an bas interstate where all their schoolmates are going to live. Virtually none of them will come to your kids' birthday parties, and you're not going to have many playdates. Whether or not the school is equal to a BC school is debateable, but the fact that virtually every school here is bursting at the seems with students, and JFS is begging from parents out of state speaks volumes to most of us.
Good luck, dude. You're gonna need it.
Ok anonymous moron.
I am a Bergenfield jfs parent and have hosted 4 parties to date and staten island kids came plenty, virtually every kid to every party. That was for grades K, 4, 5, 6. Your wild guess was just plain stupid wrong.
We get you can't understand, comprehend, etc. but people do it. You can guess all you want, but a lot of this has already been tried and done.
Whatever. No one wants to go to JFS from Bergen County. You guys have been hammering away for months to get people to sign up. Very few parents will even go to a meeting, let alone send their kids there.
You're an outsider. Try Staten Island.
In response to the last several comments, I'd like to add an observation. Not to turn this thread into a sociology debate, but it's very interesting that when someone does something slightly different in any frum community (such as send their kids to a non-local school, in this case), the response from the "mainstream" group is "you should move out of town". I've seen this phenomenon happen to people in a variety of communities, from left wing to right wing, although it's not usually so overt as it is here (probably because this blog lets you be anonymous when you say it).
The idea is that "you'll be happier among your own kind". It's fascinating (and sickening) that people expect that if you don't conform 100% to local norms, you belong somewhere else.
Anon 825 - I totally agree. It is shameful to see how people are reacting to the JFS parents. I admire them for thinking out of the box and doing what's right for their families.
No one is stopping parents from sending their kids to Staten Island. The point is, the vast majority of us have no interest, despite the incessant peddling of the school everywhere. You guys made a decision and pretty much all of us respect it. I do. It's just not for us. I still don't understand why one would live in Bergen County and send my kids there. If cost is the issue (which I'm sure it is), then why would you want to live in a place where the cost of living (especially property taxes) is so high? Why not just live in S I? This is not "fascinating or sickening" as anon 825 would like to infer. It's simply a realistic observation of the circumstances. No one is opposing you or telling you to move.
I'd like to hear from Avi and JFS parent on this issue.
These few blogs talking about tuition and JFS are way off of reality in so many ways. On these anonymous blogs, people think that people don't like you if send to JFS, don't like your kids, the trip is too far, the schools not good, the social life is miserable, etc. etc. On these anonymous blogs, people say obnoxious, mean, attacking lies about schools, and tell you to move out if you don't send to a local school. In real life, people in Bergenfield are friendly, warm, don't care where your kids go, and act close to our Jewish ideals in bein adam l'chavero.
JFS is a good school and the kids are on a bus for 15 extra minutes. In the scheme of life, this is a zero. For those of your readers, who are younger, you might not understand, but frankly in the great scheme of challenges and blessings in life - 15 minutes is not a big one. As it turns out there is a good upgrade in the quality of the bus ride. Instead of the wild behavior on the bus to a local school, our kids have a pleasant ride. Way better. For those of you who have sent your kids on a bus, you likely know what I am talking about.
In terms of living here and schooling in Staten Island - not really a big deal. We just don't see as a big deal at all. We shop at pathmark for somethings, traders joe, and wallmart for other things. And like I said, the difference of 15 minutes of a better ride makes this a non-issue.
We have direct door to door transportation. As we live in Bergenfield, when we sent to a legacy school, we were doing bus for older kids and carpool for the youngers. That was a huge pain. Now our life is simpler in that area.
We like our home life, we like our kids school life, we like our neighborhood. It's really all very good. If we become unahppy with our neighborhood, we'll move. But it's all good.
For us, sending to JFS has had great positive impact on our lives. Thank g-d, we are blessed to be able to afford whichever schooling option we decided. But with JFS as our schooling option, we are able to improve on our life in so many ways. We have been able to provide our children with a more well rounded life including vacations, camps, extras, and as a family, we have been able to step our tzedaka projects.
I can't say enough times how great our community is to each other. These ridiculous obnoxious posts are probably not even from real people in the community. And btw, if they are real people, why not put your name to your post? Or is anonymous the only way you can bash people?
Sorry for the rambling, but the bottom line is, the premise that it is such a big deal - has not been our experience. We thought it would be a big deal - so braced for the worst, but in reality it is such a non-big deal and as expected the plusses are huge.
Personally, we have no stake if JFS becomes popular or not. Our kids have made great friends there and don't "need" Teaneck kids in their classes. I hope that people explore JFS and some go there so that they can live happier lives.
Unfortunately, we know so many people are going through life constantly struggling due to their tuition bills. A whole of them, could improve their lives by going to JFS. Some can't afford any school, I guess so JFS won't be a help to them. My point is that life in Teaneck doesn't have to be that way for you. For a lot of struggling people, you don't have to move out of the area, you just have to think outside the bergec county box.
JFS Parent,
I want to clarify an earlier post of mine (possibly made on one of the other blogs? Can't remember). It said something to the effect of, "If Teaneck is so great, then why does everyone in Teaneck think that sending their kids to a different school will get their family ostracized?" I think this post was misinterpreted.
I do not live in Teaneck, and my comments did not reflect my personal views, nor those of others around me (including any actual Teaneck residents I've spoken to personally). I was not reporting that you would be ostracized for sending your kids to JFS. Rather, I was echoing the sentiments of several posters on these boards - namely, that the commenters and/or their wives were *afraid* of being ostracized for doing something different.
My point was, since according to these commenters, Teaneck seems to be filled with jerks and morons like the above poster(s) Anon 6:31 PM and Anon 7:10 AM, then you couldn't pay me to live there. However, I understand your point that these jerks are likely a teeny minority of Teaneck residents. Still, I think there are many other nice places to live where pretty much everyone is respectful and open-minded (or at least, live and let live).
The post was meant as a criticism of certain obnoxious Teaneck residents, and the herd mentality of these towns as a whole. Not as a criticism of sending to JFS (which I applaud). Not sure that helps, but I did want to make myself clear.
"the vast majority of us have no interest, despite the incessant peddling of the school everywhere."
On two blogs and announcing an open house in TeaneckShuls and in four shuls' Shabbos announcements? That's "incessant peddling?" Really? On the other blog I was told JFS' problem is that it doesn't advertise enough. I tend to agree with that assessment, as most Teaneck people I talk to have still never heard of JFS.
"I still don't understand why one would live in Bergen County and send my kids there. If cost is the issue (which I'm sure it is), then why would you want to live in a place where the cost of living (especially property taxes) is so high? Why not just live in S I?"
We live in Teaneck because Teaneck is great. We have an extremely close relationship with the Rav of one of the shuls in town, I attend regular shiurim there, and we think the Rav of our shul is unbelievably good as well. We have close friends and family within walking distance. There are trees lining my street and beautiful parks to play in (on Shabbos afternoon, if you go to the park, you'll get a dvar Torah and a popsicle!). There are dozens of kosher places to eat - and we can and do take advantage of them (the cheaper ones, anyway). We finally have a nice mikvah, and it's getting nicer. We have tzedakas that take care of our own (Project Ezrah), and the people in our shul are mostly unpretentious and welcoming. Teaneck is close to Manhattan via car or bus, and EWR is just 20 minutes away (if you don't get stuck in traffic). Housing prices are high, but we bought a small house before the jump; our mortgage is not an issue. Taxes here are nuts, no argument. Moving to a lower cost area would solve that one issue, but not immediately, as transaction costs of selling/moving/buying/fixing would dwarf savings for several years.
We chose JFS for hashkafic reasons. We can easily afford to live in Teaneck and we can afford BC elementary schools today. We were paying full tuition at BC schools for two children (we're still sending one child to a BC school, building payments, scrip, and all). We anticipated making ends meet once all four were in the system, as long as we curtailed saving and tzedaka. Once my older two enter high school, the numbers get pretty dicey, but that's still a few years off and perhaps we'll be earning more then.
So we chose JFS for hashkafic reasons. My hashkafa is to never put myself in the position of taking community resources, even if that requires thinking ahead a few years and not relying on income increases that may or may not come (ain somchin al hanes). My hashkafa includes making the best use of my resources, and paying $15K/year for elementary school and cutting tzedaka to Project Ezrah/Chai Lifeline/YACHAD makes no sense when there is a dramatically less expensive option that, in our limited experience so far, is BETTER. We chose JFS for hashkafic reasons, and we encourage those who feel similarly to visit the school themselves. We don't need local school friends for our kids, as nice as that would be - our kids have local friends. We're not seeking "critical mass" - we're already doing it. But we feel like it's a public service announcement to let people know that the JFS option exists. Why wouldn't you want your child educated in such a warm, yet academically rigorous environment? Why hope for public school options that don't exist when you can send your child to an affordable Torah-infused environment today? Why should you have to be a Struggler or a Chump when cutting your tuition in half would make you a Comfortable Mentsch?
Avi,
"Why should you have to be a Struggler or a Chump when cutting your tuition in half would make you a Comfortable Mentsch?"
That's the money quote and the real issue. The Strugglers and the Chumps are all upper earning Americans with great incomes, not able to give to charity because they are over-extended on education.
Tzedakah and helping the poor is somehow optional in Orthodoxy, while hair covering is considered critical. One of those is directly from Chumash, one of those is at best teased out and not universal Jewish practice 30+ years ago.
So, is that it for this blog? Did all the criticisms (most of which have some validity) put Struggling out of business?
Seems like a lot of these blogs are starting to run their course. Chump has become the 'all JFS, all the time channel' and doesn't seem to be getting much traction. Struggling tried to make the case for his peers and that didn't go over very well. I guess we just need a blog for the Winthrop crowd and we will have a trifecta.
Could just be that this is all a mute point until next year when all the same arguments can start up again.
I like the idea of a Winthrop blog. "Should I get the Ferrari? It would be awfully ostentatious, and there's a recession and all... but I did donate 3x the cost of the car to the schools this year already (stupid ungrateful Chumps!), and I deserve one, dammit! Pininfarina, here I come!"
Yep, but would have to include the whining about - I really can afford the car but my wife doesn't want me to get it because of the impact it will have on the children. Come to think of it - this is much more reasonable than what you read about on the other blog.
Anyone see Chump's new brilliant tactic on blackmailing the schools? These guy has become the laughing stock of Bergen County.
Anyone seen Chump's new tactic on silencing the Strugglers out here? SW, where are you? How much money did they pay you to shut up or what kind of pictures do they have on you?
Seems like Struggling is done. No new posts.
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