It's a sad day in blog land, people. HonestlyFrum, one of the founding fathers of righteously angry blogging for Bergen County, is considering retirement. Or at least he's coming to grips with a simple reality: you can't save people from themselves. Consider the words in the October 25th post (http://honestlyfrum.blogspot.com/2010/10/moving-forward.html), "In my humble and unfortunate opinion, at this point I do not see anything that can save the charedi community in Israel, and ever growing in America from themselves." I've been a somewhat frequent reader of HF's blog, and as is the case with all bloggers, he had some good moments and some bad moments. I think he is at his best when he reports on some facts, gives some background, and throws in a levelheaded opinion. And in fairness, he does that very very frequently. Occasionally, the disdain reaches a higher pitch and an insult or two slip out, but overall the messaging is good. I'm also an avid reader of the "jewish news" blogs, so I'm caught up on all stories before I hit the HF website and it's good to hear his opinions.
Over the past couple of years, HF has taken on the BC tuition issue in a way never before achieved, and without denigrating any other blogs, HF is still the reigning champion of the issue. It was angry, sure... but that's what moderation of comments is for. It was also frequently enlightening, with issues addressed head-on, discussed, with varying views presented. All that without publishing a single administrator's salary or outing a single scholarship family. I'd love to see HF tackle a lot of different BC issues, starting with why the community continues to mount an "arms race" when it comes to making smachot. I personally will not be able to afford the bar mitzva necessary to "compete" with my son's classmates in a couple of years. Thankfully, my wife and I decided not to even try; we can barely afford something simple. But I do notice that a lot of other people continue to act as if there is no recession. Good for them that they are able to rise above the economic difficulties, but it does spread a bad message to the entire class. I'd love to see HF jump on that issue and a few others as well.
Then one day, the HF blog was silent on BC tuition. And in its place, came the Chump blog. It started off with a bang : "End Scholarship Abuse NOW!"... then "Are Bergen County Yeshiva Teachers Over-Compensated?", and a few posts later, "Ethical Ramifications Of Choosing A Profession Where Your Neighbor Will Likely Have To Subsidize Your Children's Education". And with its comment board afire, it proceeded to burn a path through the Jewish community until it arrived here, just five months later, with no next steps at hand. I find it ironic that the blog's 3rd post is quite similar to its current post: "Consider JFS". I agree... JFS warrants consideration (and I'll address it further in the future), but I think we could have gotten there without the pitchforks, the rifles, and the discussion of salary structures in the yeshivas.
HF... I hope your mood changes, that you continue taking on key issues. Maybe with a little less anger and a little more of an ambivalent, factually-based tone... something that will make you happy you're not born a charedi. As for Chump's blog, take it for what it's worth: a fun read if you enjoy hating on others.
47 comments:
Not retiring, just considering changing my tone.
I don't think you could get back to JFS and other current options without the vitirol and discussion on Chump's blog.
Salary structure/admins
Scholarships
Ratcheting up teacher pay -- primarily by hiring more and more Rabbanim that make more than a non-ordained teacher would
These are the primary cost drivers of tuition.
By exploring everything, it is clear that there is no magic wand to ratchet tuition down, and now people need to decide what is best for their families.
And yet Al - most people still aren't will to make any choices. So is all the vitriol worth it or has it just created polarization? And let's be real - Chump isn't looking for an honest debate - he is looking to sensationalize to drive his agenda. Just look at all the editing he is doing on his blog.
Maybe this blog can be a place for a more reasoned discussion.
btw - struggling - time stamp on the comments look like it is set to PST??
Obviously some growing pains with the blog... I think it defaulted to PST because I created the blog when I was on the West Coast.
Miami,
Here's my question, though. What does it mean if tuition is $15K and a portion of it covers other people's tuitions? I pay what I can of that amount, others pay full, and somehow the yeshiva budget manages to handle that amount of money. There have not been an unusual number of emergency appeals from the yeshivot trying to raise funds (as there have been in other cities). So what we have is currently sustainable, without any projection or reason to speculate that the yeshivot couldn't keep running for decades into the future.
There is no magic wand, I agree, but it's likely that building costs and free/discounted tuitions are drivers for nearly all of the so-called inflated price between JFS and legacy BC schools.
Does that mean that my children should be kicked out of the school? So each parent could save a few hundred dollars? Seriously? Each 10,000 scholarship spread out over 500 children costs 20 dollars. I recognize that there are a lot of people on scholarship and so it's a lot more than 20 dollars.
I think it's tzedaka. Good for you for having the money to give what I don't have.
Three questions to those on scholarship:
How many kids will you have? So that full tuition paying parents can better plan for OUR (previously called your) future obligations.
How many jobs do you recomend other scholarship parents take to pay their tuitions?
What is the appropriate times per week for scholarship parents to dine out (modestly of course)?
Struggling Who.
You sound like everything that is wrong with our community. You lecture others how it is your right to recieve and others obligation to provide for you and your kids.
How are you different from a spoiled bratty kid who feels everything is coming to her?
You say you are going to be modest in a future simcha? Do you want an award for that?
We don't get it.
Questioner: You must give lots of charity. When u see a guy begging on the street, do u ask him these questions?
No one forces you to send your child to a private school. If you don't like the cost structure, don't send them there.
anon 8:13,
I give what I can afford. In past years gave more, with tough economy we give less. My super secret formula is that I spend on my own needs and then help others when I can. Regarding checking how poor someone is before giving charity, it is well known that to differing extents, you do need to check into people so that you give to the neediest.
I have serious doubts as to whether subsidizing a 75k or 100k earning family living in BC is charity.
No one's talking about forcing anyone to do anything except for Struggling Who who not surprisingly fully supports taking other people's money so that he can live in one of the most expensive areas of the country and send to the one of the most expensive yeshivas in the country.
Questioner - but you are doing exactly the same thing to those people who are contributing voluntarily to the schools as well. Those people - typically called the "Winthrops" - give 10s of thousands and more to support our communal institutions. If everyone would just pay their way - this wouldn't be necessary. Yes, even your tuition is subsidized. And, before you say that they volunteer, and you don't have a choice - well let's see - if the schools were all swimming in cash from full paying parent fully paying their way - the school wouldn't have to beg for charity and the money could go elsewhere.
So - what gives you the right to point fingers at others until you are willing to pay full freight?
Struggling Who -
It has been alleged in other venues that scholarship parents don't support cutting costs or opening a low cost school in Bergen County. Do you?
At what point, did you realize that you couldn't afford full tuition? How many children did you have? Did you stop having children?
What is your plan for high school tuition?
Plan is same as elementary school.... other people will have the prvilege of paying for his kids.
Funny story - Chump is deleting comments for anyone who disagrees with him. Struggling - I think you are on to something here. Nice to have a place to post without heavy editing.
Also funny story.
Struggling doesn't respond to questions.
big deal - neither does Chump. still haven't see any posts about the parlor meeting, jfs rsvps or that wonderful petition.
wait - is that you Chump?
If you won't defend your positions. Why start a blog?
wow - Chump has stopped letting comments through. he must be pretty rattled by the competition.
8:58 - take a look back and see how often chump defends his position. mostly just ignores his detractors. now deleting comments that take him on.
Yes. Schnorrers are ENTITLED to their own blog too.
From now, the schools will add a blog tax so that scholarship families can blog too.
chumps, hacks, shnorrers, oh my!
Looks like chump's blog is offline. oh well. i guess he couldn't take the heat.
So what do you think guys - should BC schools become more like JFS and Chabad when neither of the schools is able to attract any BC parents to a meeting. Sounds like a loosing strategy.
What's the real scoop on these schools that no one is even willing to listen to their pitch for an hour?
I sent this comment to Chump's blog but I suspect he won't post. Appreciate having another avenue to comment which won't be deleted. Thanks Struggling.
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Chump - you seem to be deleting any comments you don't agree with so I'll post this on other blogs as well.
I find the current JFS strategy risky. First, becoming associated with a site that has got such a bad vibe in the BC community is very risky. Can't imagine why JFS would want to be known as the "Chump School". Second, we've already seen how fickle chumps are. One bad experience with an administrator or teacher at JFS and can you imagine the vitriol on this website. You know what they say about a woman scorned. So much worse for a chump scorned. Lastly, why would JFS want to become the cheapo school. Chumps don't contribute beyond tuition so little fundraising upside. They are incredibly needy (need 10 friends to go to the bathroom with them) - can you imagine JFS with BC only classes? and they are unlikely to get into a car for 45min to an hour to participate in school events to build up JFS or even pick up their kids from extracurricular events. So basically BC parents will sponge off of Staten Island families until they all get together and ask JFS to get rid of the obnoxious BC chumps. In parallel, the wealthier SI / JFS parents will start to move to BC to take advantage of our schools (which will be all too happy to run parlor meetings in SI if there is interest). I already know of a few SI families who have moved to BC and they are great contributors to the community and our schools.
So sounds like a bad approach for JFS and potentially very good for BC schools.
Questioner,
Happy to answer your questions.
1. Probably 5 or 6 kids. I think we need to remember that (despite its ridicule in the blog world) the Rabbanan have still not come out and supported birth control. Maybe your expectations are that I disregard Torah and do whatever I want. As I've heard it so crudely put, "I'll let the Rabbis in my bedroom business when they let me in theirs." (By the way, if you said that, you know who you are and I hope you're kidding... be careful of what you wish for, there are some doors we're better off leaving closed.)
Happy to discuss birth control in a wider forum, but for now... it's still a no-no. We're up to 4 already and we're still pretty young. I'd say 5 or 6 and not more because I'm not sure you can still parent them effectively. (For more on that, read this blog, it's my new must read on idiot parenting ---> http://meshugaparents.blogspot.com/)
I will not get into an argument with a Rabbi for the use of birth control.
2. Keep as many jobs as you need to pay full tuition. Look, I'm sorry that my wife and I don't make as much money as you do, but we're working as hard as we can to remedy that. Certainly a big factor was the fact that we had children earlier in our marriage, before we could truly afford the riches of life. Or that the kids have grown up to the "tuition" age before we hit it big. But that's the past. Now we're paying as much as we can, and I wish it could be full tuition.
Your story is better. You can afford full tuition; that's a bracha from Hashem by the way. Are you really going to get bitter over the fact that not everyone can pay full tuition? Probably not, but you do want everyone to live simpler if they can't afford it. I don't disagree with that fact, but perhaps disagree with the extent of the lifestyle cuts. Leasing minivans is a great example of that to explore. If I can't afford to pay 25K for a new car and can't afford the 600 dollars a month it would require to pay it off over a 3-5 year period, what should I do? Buy a 5 yr old minivan that will break down frequently? With the $16K I don't have anyway? It's actually cheaper for me to lease, a $300 payment is more manageable. Sure, over the long haul, I'll have paid more in interest and the cost will not have been effective. But I can't afford the big $16K amount today... I have to gamble that in three years, I'll have the 300 a month.
3. What is the appropriate times per week for scholarship parents to dine out? Great question. Let me spin it around... how many times is the appropriate amount for ANY parent to dine out? Once a month? Not at all? After all, if your complaint is that I should go live in a hostel and eat bread and water so that your tuition is lower and so that you can eat out more frequently, I think you've lost the moral high ground here.
Looking forward to thoughtful responses.
Your premises are all wrong.
JFS is a better school with better teachers for a better price.
Just like you can sometimes buy better products in Walmart or NJ vs. NY, etc., JFS is a better value than BC schools.
You don't have to take my word for it. Go the to the open house on 11/7 at 8 PM at Greengarts, 28 Grayson place in Teaneck and then visit the school.
If you have a fear of the mialege to the better school, then drive yourself in the AM and see how long it takes.
Really no need to debate - check it out, unless you are happy with what you are paying at BC school (scholarship price or full paying tuition paying parents).
Very few parents are going to send their children to Staten Island, IMHO. The reasons are the long bus trip, fear of the unknown, lack of critical mass, and fear that theor children will not have playmates nearby. After all, are you going to send your kids to Staten Island for a play date? Hardly. I hear it's tough enough enough for the Fair Lawn and Passaic kids in the BC schools.
The reality is, chump simply wants the BC schools to fail. He has stated so on his blog. He will grasp at any straw that makes it happen. Unfortunately for him, his extreme views and lack of accepting constructive criticism has marginalized him to the point where is no longer a non-entity. He has now moved to laughing stock status. I do not believe he will ever hold ANY meeting, becuause he is now way too embarrased to reveal himself.
Hey, I hear there's a great yeshiva in Baltimore. Send your kids on the train once a week....
1. It is wrong to have children that you can't afford. Seen another way, you are having children to be financially taken car of by others. I actually want you to have many children and afford them all. If you wish you could pay more, then are you similarly "wishing" you can pay more when your family grows to 6 kids?
2. Over my life, I, and many of the people I know, have worked as many jobs to pay their bills and save up for things like a house and car that they wanted. Waitering jobs, second jobs, hebrew school teaching, youth leader jobs, etc. When we wanted a house, we worked extra jobs to earn a downpayment. When did that go out of fashion?
Temporary stuff happens, ie job loss. But I fundamentally don't agree that people should live in areas and family sizes that they can't afford forever. If you can't afford 3 children, and there is no career path, grad school etc. on the horizon, you can't afford 5 or 6.
3. Dining out is 100% luxury as is buying prepared food. If you are being supported by the community through scholarships or grants - no dining out.
If you are not on charity, then dine out as many times you want / can afford. Or spend your money on vacations to florida or israel, or Zaire. That's what adults who earn their money do - they decide how to spend their extra money. If you are on charity, take what you "need" and the other charity money can go to other needy people.
It is downright comical how obvious it is that the author of this blog is responsible for over 2/3 of the "anonymous" comments on this blog. I also think this author needs serious psychological help as his posts and comments under his various pseudonyms are all focused on chump instead of on his own struggles.
Anon 9:47,
I agreed with your premises, but with the caveat that you didn't address the halachic perspective of question # 1. How do I "stop" having children, when that is assur accordingly to my religious beliefs? Do I disregard the rabbanan? Said another way, is your gripe with us "struggling" people or with the Rabbis who don't modify their antiquated religious views for the 21st century reality? (said toungue-in-cheek, because I'm not convinced that I agree with changing a halacha just because of money.)
I don't think I'm consciously having children with the expectation that others will pay for them, but at the same time, I'm doing the best I can financially. We still pay a sizable amount in tuition and I expect that number to go up as we make more money.
2. I will take up this issue in a future post, but you're right... hard work and saving up has not gone out of fashion. We made money, we saved money, we bought a house... and then the recession came and whacked our family income in the head. There's not a whole lot I can do about that, right? I'm happy to have the job that I have; also, racing to another state will reduce my expenses, but reduce the family income as well. The difference is that you didn't get caught in this financial crisis, for whatever the reason. Maybe you bought your house when houses in BC still went for 200K or 300K. But they went up to 400 and 500K, and so did our incomes. Now the incomes have dropped back down and now we're stuck paying a mortgage for that 400-500K house price and trying to avoid going into bankruptcy, because I don't think that's a good strategy. With that information being the reality for so many people, what did you expect them to do? Not buy the house when their savings and income could sustain it because of the possibility of a 20% income cut? You would never buy a house. And sure... maybe we shouldn't have, but 4 kids in an expensive 2 bedroom apartment was not a solution either. (I await the speeches about how "in my day, we slept 14 people in one bed and we liked it." They're true. But we were able to afford the house at our pre-recession salaries . Isn't that exactly the time to buy a house and get out of the cramped apartment?
Moving doesn't solve the problem if the income goes down as well. A solution is not growing the family, but that's not permissible halachically. I'd say that I'm boxed in (to an extent, pending future increases in income), and I am telling you that I'm not alone. Look, don't forget... I think I have financial growth in the future and I'm sure a lot of people do. I have a friend who are making $100K combined as an accountant and teacher in their late 20's. They already have 3 kids. Those kids are getting older and next year, 2 of them will be in the legacy yeshivot. That $30K+ of tuition destroys their financial position, but in 5 years, maybe they're making 150K combined and can better afford it. Their problem is that they had their kids "too fast and too early" in their marriage. So we're to punish them for "mistakes made" 5-8 years ago and for the recession not growing their salaries faster... by moving them out?
Instead, we keep them here and instead of 30K, they pay maybe $22K. And then in 5 years, they pay the full tuition and help support the next scholarship-needy family. That's building a community based on giving and receiving, not cutting off your nose to improve your tuition by $200 a year. And what if you chase them out and in 5 years you lose your job? Who's going to cover your tuition? No one... we'll just move you out to wherever they were and they can buy your house (in foreclosure, probably).
Anon 9:54,
I'm going to leave up your post, but I'm not sure where Chump fits into the current conversations. I'm hoping to get people to understand my individual plight (and other people's too) so that there's less animosity in the Jewish world. If people understood what us "struggling folk" go through, then maybe there'd be more joy in Chumpland about paying full tuition and reveling in the brachot that Hashem has given them. Not to mention the reward for helping to pay for other students to go to yeshiva as well.
But if you want to bring this back to Chump, maybe you could "plug" Chump's blog by linking to his website in your next post. I think a lot of readers of this blog would benefit from "hearing" both sides of this issue.
Anon 8:33 PM (last night?),
I hope my other comments have covered my goals for covering HS tuition. Hopefully, increased income, increased equity in my home that I can then borrow against (to pay tuition).... they're part of the plan. My wife and I have sold some individually and personally valuable items (although I think they had more value to me than they did to others) and have paid that money to the yeshiva.
Look, life is never easy even if you have money , but without birth control (and even with it ...), it's going to be an uphill battle. That said, I'm happy with my 4 wonderful children. I don't see them as much as I'd like (no different than you chumpers), but I'm not going to complain about that, and I would never want fewer children.
Or as someone said on another blog, that song "Cats in the Cradle" wasn't written by someone with 5 yeshiva tuitions. It was written by just another guy who works too hard and doesn't see his kids enough.
If that doesn't answer your question thoroughly, repost it and I'll try again.
Struggling
Its nice to hear the other side of the story. Hopefully you will keep this blog as a more mature discussion than others
Two questions:
1) Have you ever asked your Rav about birth control? Do you ask after each child? What applied when you first got married MAY not apply after child #2-4. Dont just say that birth control is always assur. That is outright false. Each individual situation is unique.
2)The recession has hit many people. However, when saying your salary took a hit, I think you need to explain further. Were you laid off and now are underemployed (lower salary than before)? Or were you relying upon a bonus every year to make payments? If the former, then the community should be here to help you out at this time. If the latter, then better financial planning is in order.
The is one flaw in the example of your friend. While it is true (hopefully) that they will be making more money in 5 years an will be able to afford full tuition for 2 kids, they already have 3 kids and appear to want more. That $50k raise wont cover the added expense of child #3 in yeshiva, #4-5 in babysitting plus the added expenses of a family of 5 with 3 little kids becoming 6-7 with older kids. Thus its a never ending cycle. Your expenses are greater than your income. What bothers people is that not only does there not appear to be any plan on your (general terms) part to rectify the situation, but little desire to do so
Honest,
Fair arguments and I'll get you more information in an upcoming blog post or comment. Gotta get back to work now before some chumps start complaining that they're subsidizing my internet connection and blog. I do think we all realize that we're not going to "get ahead" of our expenses until our kids are married and on their own. A scary thought.
Struggling - I also have an issue with the concept that you have to have more children for halachic reasons. Doesn't resonate with my world or halachic view but I guess that something you need to grapple with. If you can't afford more children it really isn't right to put the burden on the community. I agree that we shouldn't chase every person out of town who falls on hard times but there needs to be a modicum of reason in these type of decisions not just blind adherence to 'what the Rav said' - if that is really what he said.
I will say that it sounds like you are just a few degrees below the "chump" level. Many of the questions being asked of you could be asked of chumps as well - why did you have more children than you could afford? buy a house you couldn't afford? move into a community that you couldn't afford? We've seen it all play out on the other blog. It does take on a sharper edge in your case because you are making decisions that put a burden on the community and not asking others their opinion (even if only a small portion of my tuition goes to pay for your scholarship - it still is money out of my pocket and if I didn't agree that you should have more kids - hey I have some reason to be concerned). I also worry that the tide is turning in the direction of more families in your situation and therefore an increasing burden on the schools / other families that is unsustainable.
All that said, I agree, those of us who can afford should thank G-d that we can do so and take a broader view that this is the price of being part of a community.
Again, while I don't agree, appreciate the perspective from the other side and the lack of rancor in the discussion. Nice change of pace. I hope that you won't follow the path of others of clamping down on differing points of view.
Good luck with the blog.
As long as they stay relatively calm, my finger's off the delete button.
By the way, the main reason for this blog was to take a different point of view on what some of the struggling families are going through. I don't expect chumps to be less frustrated with the status quo, but I do have a different goal in mind: With any luck, the "struggling" group will be better understood in a few weeks/months and with understanding, maybe some of the hatred will melt away.
I would bet $100 that anon 3:49 = this blog's author.
5:29 - i'm not. though i'm sure my denials will count for nothing with you. if you can't tell by the way i write that i'm different then nothing i can do to convince you. you must be a chumper and i guess you also believe that all the anonymous posts on his blog are his as well.
Anon 8:55 - JFS isn't associated with Chump. JFS parents asked Chump to publicize the open house to help get the word out that the option exists. We also posted notices in TeaneckShuls and in each shul's announcements (when they would let us).
In terms of it being a "risky strategy" for JFS to go the low cost route, all I can say is that this has been the school's philosophy for over fifty years. It is primarily due to the realities of Staten Island - most JFS parents could not afford BC's 15K per child price tags, so JFS does everything it can to keep costs down. There's no stigma to sending your kid to a "low cost school" in Staten Island, it's just common sense, and there aren't any high cost schools in Staten Island because nobody could afford them. It helps that JFS provides an excellent well-rounded education, and JFS doesn't lack superficial amenities - it has the same smartboards and computers and full court gym as the schools in BC.
Anon 5:34,
Yet another good reason to just "pick a name" and use it online. Of course, then they'll say that you are juggling names.
Don't worry about it; let them think what they want.
Struggling,
Assuming your Rav leads one of the shuls here in Teaneck/Bergenfield, you need to have a chat with him. There is not a single Rabbi in this area that says that all forms of birth control are assur. There isn't a single one who says it's always mutar, either, so you need to have that discussion as to where you fit. If you genuinely want more kids even though by your own admission you can't afford them, that's one thing (and even then you might want to talk to a Rav about your situation). But don't say that you're under terrible stress and you feel awful but you have no options when you have not explored the options.
Besides, you do sound like you plan to stop after 5 or 6 because you don't think you can effectively parent more than that. How do you expect to stop if birth control is assur?
Seriously, AYLOR (Ask Your Local Orthodox Rabbi). You may be surprised with what they have to say.
Avi,
I hear what you are saying. Perhaps I'm too swayed by Chump's blog (my bad). I haven't seen the other advertisements but I must say that low cost and Chump are closely tied in my head - maybe in other's heads as well.
What I don't quite get about JFS is how they can have all the extras and still be cheaper. I get the state subsidies and have also heard that that receive aid (now / in the past) from the other school in SI. Perhaps they are just ahead of us on the NNJKIDS idea in that they have one school system for the community and the community - not just parents - subsidize. Would be curious if you have more info.
IRS,
Don't ignore the state subsidies and other aid. Also, don't forget construction costs and mortgages (likely much higher in your average BC school... is JFS's mortgage paid off? Possibly, given how long it's been around.) And with scholarships not needed at such a high level, tuition can be lower, right? Fewer administrators probably doesn't hurt either.
And I'll throw one more thing on the table. BC Legacy schools get very little "love" from the shuls in the community. Not that it's expected, but you never hear of a shul here doing an appeal or hosting an event for one of the legacy schools. I have heard that the shuls in Staten Island do a very nice job collecting money for JFS and that there is a shul appeal for JFS. It helps being pretty much the only game in town in that instance. I guess NNJKIDS is a step in that direction, but at $200 per child, it's still a drop in the bucket (though NNJKIDS is really in its infancy and should be given a chance to grow without the heavy criticism everyone loves to dump on them.)
Meant to say don't "minimize the state subsidies", not "ignore the state subsidies".
Meant to say don't "minimize the state subsidies", not "ignore the state subsidies".
It's a bunch of those reasons and more. JFS is extremely well run with a stated goal of affordable tuition.
Come check it out 8 PM, 11/7 at Greengart home, 28 Grayson Place, Teaneck.
For half the price of the BC schools, you will be shocked at how great the school is.
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